Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

paw patrol

Floppybits wrote: »

The sad fact here is that we are even discussing this. This should not even be considered.

I couldn't agree more.
It's amazing how we are now discussing the workability of the proposed system rather than the utter horrifying nature of a government imposed 2 tier society.
This is mandatory vaccination by proxy which is horrifying and the stuff of an authoritarian dystopia.

I have written to my TDs to gauge their opinion on this and when they will the want this vaccine pass lifted.

Floppybits wrote: »

People got so upset about the Public Services Card but we are so willing to accept this Covid green card or pass.

It's mad what a bit of hyped up fear and removal of services can do to people. People need to resist this robustly.
It's covid19 vaccine now, once the precedent is set it can be anything.

_Kaiser_

JRant wrote: »

What I find absolutely shocking this past few days is MM stating repeatedly that government don't want a vaccine passport for indoor dining but that it's the only way NPHET will allow it. The man needs to be removed from office and the government dissolved as they are clearly and by their own admission not running the country anymore.

Martin doesn't care. He has achieved his goal of becoming Taoiseach.. that's all that matters!

Also, he won't run in the next election I'd imagine and will get his full pension(s) when he does go. He'll probably end up on the lecture circuit talking about "leading through a pandemic" or something.

Ballynally

JRant wrote: »

What I find absolutely shocking this past few days is MM stating repeatedly that government don't want a vaccine passport for indoor dining but that it's the only way NPHET will allow it.

Mixed messages are NOT a problem for the Government.
Confusion is ok. Delay is good.

rob316

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Martin doesn't care. He has achieved his goal of becoming Taoiseach.. that's all that matters!

Also, he won't run in the next election I'd imagine and will get his full pension(s) when he does go. He'll probably end up on the lecture circuit talking about "leading through a pandemic" or something.

He won't make it to next GE as leader of his party, never mind as Taoiseach.

Floppybits

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Martin doesn't care. He has achieved his goal of becoming Taoiseach.. that's all that matters!

Also, he won't run in the next election I'd imagine and will get his full pension(s) when he does go. He'll probably end up on the lecture circuit talking about "leading through a pandemic" or something.

Or get his own programme on RTE discussing the highways and byways of Cork on his bike or something.

Martin has no qualms about selling out as long as it he doesn't have to be responsible. Sold out his party to become Taoiseach and has sold out the state to NPHET because it is easier that they make the hard decisions and not him.

FileNotFound

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Martin doesn't care. He has achieved his goal of becoming Taoiseach.. that's all that matters!

Also, he won't run in the next election I'd imagine and will get his full pension(s) when he does go. He'll probably end up on the lecture circuit talking about "leading through a pandemic" or something.

It has occurred to me more than once now that we have a man in charge who is set to step aside next year, prob won't lead his own party i the next GE and will not have to deal with any of the fallout of his current decisions.

It makes for a dangerous mix when we keep digging a bigger financial hole every day of the week.

He'll skate through next year saying its all covids fault yada yada yada, then may well disappear.

I would much prefer someone with long term commitment to be running the show as at least there may be some accountability if that happens.

MM was a minister in the Gov that brought us the recession and is quickly doing his best to create a covid one.

Both times FF will leave it for other to implement tough measures to correct the nations finances.

paw patrol

Floppybits wrote: »

Or get his own programme on RTE discussing the highways and byways of Cork on his bike or something.

Martin has no qualms about selling out as long as it he doesn't have to be responsible. Sold out his party to become Taoiseach and has sold out the state to NPHET because it is easier that they make the hard decisions and not him.

Leo either tbh.
Leo is much younger than Martin and will eventually out grow the Dail - he is aiming for a future in some global organisation like EU/UN. He doesn't care either once he looks commanding for the betters in those organisations.
He also has some popularity in the world economic forum so he'll probably want a shot at that too.

bucketybuck

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

This should be printed in the paper. Sums up perfectly how so many people are feeling about MMs spineless defection of power. Great Post.

The Tony problem is the same issue America faced with Trump.

The big fear with Trump was never really that he did harm, it was what would happen when a smarter man used Trumps methods to really take advantage of dysfunctional American politics.

Today here in Ireland we have an historically weak government ceding power to an unelected tunnel visioned advisory group. That is bad enough on its own, but what happens when that group is led by an intelligent man or woman with their own agenda? An agenda that runs contrary to the needs of the country?

Think it couldn't happen? Then you are an idiot.

"Beware the power behind the throne." Micheal Martin has been a disgrace as Taoiseach, but if he does nothing else he could finally do something good for this country by strongly and firmly putting Tony and NPHET back in their ****ing boxes.

Floppybits

paw patrol wrote: »

Leo either tbh.
Leo is much younger than Martin and will eventually out grow the Dail - he is aiming for a future in some global organisation like EU/UN. He doesn't care either once he looks commanding for the betters in those organisations.
He also has some popularity in the world economic forum so he'll probably want a shot at that too.

That can go for most of the politicians in this country. They are all eyeing up the next big move and are just looking to position themselves for that. Politicians in the country do not put the country first as I believe they should do, they put themselves, the party, their family and friends and lobbyists all before the country. The country just gets the scraps from the table to keep us happy.

Multipass

LooseFur0110 wrote: »

I believe there are more people fighting against this than is apparent. Writing emails and voicing your concerns to your local TD's is the absolute best thing to do regarding this. They have to listen, it's their job! I certainly have questions about this...and they have been voiced.

I did that and got back a reply about the Delta variant being of great concern.

MOH

Hurrache wrote: »

It's not the same problem, and you fail to understand, at this stage in the pandemic staggeringly, the purpose of people wearing masks.

In the same, way that you, fail to understand, stag,ger,ingly, the purpose of commas?

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at the data. Went from ca 20k to 50k tests a week from June to July. That’s why the positive rate dropped. Mass testing started. Symptomatic and close contacts still got tested at the same rate as before but this was supplemented by mass testing in factories, care homes etc. The overall cases grew approx 4% per day from end of June until October.

I'm quite aware the the number of tests increased by 250% in that period.
That's exactly why you can't just take the daily case numbers and compare those.

40/1000 followed by 100/2500 doesn't represent a sudden 250% increase in cases since you don't know how many additional cases you would have detected if you'd done the extra 1500 tests the first time.
In the same way as doing it the other way around and only doing 40% of the tests you did last time, and getting lower numbers, doesn't mean things have suddenly magically got better.

Plus do you have a source for exactly when this mass testing allegedly happened? I'm well beyond taking your word for anything at this point.

Multipass

Multipass wrote: »

I did that and got back a reply about the Delta variant being of great concern.

My response would be, of course it is of concern. Then I would state : so will the next variant, and the next, and the next. Are we going to hide forever?

paw patrol

Floppybits wrote: »

That can go for most of the politicians in this country. They are all eyeing up the next big move and are just looking to position themselves for that. Politicians in the country do not put the country first as I believe they should do, they put themselves, the party, their family and friends and lobbyists all before the country. The country just gets the scraps from the table to keep us happy.

a fair point ,
I guess Leo just has youth on his side to make a good shot of being a global superstar when most of our cabinet would have limited time left to be either a Tony Blair global peace master (puke) or whatever he does

JRant

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Martin doesn't care. He has achieved his goal of becoming Taoiseach.. that's all that matters!

Also, he won't run in the next election I'd imagine and will get his full pension(s) when he does go. He'll probably end up on the lecture circuit talking about "leading through a pandemic" or something.

It's a perfect example of someone making decisions with absolutely no skin in the game and therefore doesn't really care about even short term implications nevermind medium to long term.

Stheno

August

Minister for Transport Eamon Ryan has indicated it may be August before indoor dining is allowed in th State.

Speaking on his way into a Cabinet meeting on Tuesday morning, Mr Ryan said he expected digital travel certificates to go ahead as planned on July 19th, but that the rest of society would be opened across August.

He said the Government would not be throwing the doors open as they are doing in the UK but that health data from the UK would be significant in determining how plans could evolve.

“We’re going to get everyone vaccinated, back dining, able to socialise – it will just take a bit of time,” he said. “It’s not going to be a huge change, it’s going to be step by step.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/indoor-dining-may-not-open-until-august-eamon-ryan-says-1.4612953

Floppybits

Stheno wrote: »

August



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/indoor-dining-may-not-open-until-august-eamon-ryan-says-1.4612953

Does this mean that people who are not vaccinated will never be able to leave the country from now on?

Stheno

Floppybits wrote: »

Does this mean that people who are not vaccinated will never be able to leave the country from now on?

Tbh I've no idea at this stage

stephenjmcd

Stheno wrote: »

August



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/indoor-dining-may-not-open-until-august-eamon-ryan-says-1.4612953

I'd be surprised if he knew what day it was today.

It'll all come out later in the week when Government meet with hospitality industry on Thursday, latest reports are a memo for cabinet next Tuesday on the back of Thursdays meeting.

the kelt

Stheno wrote: »

August



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/indoor-dining-may-not-open-until-august-eamon-ryan-says-1.4612953

Lets go flying kites everyone!!

FileNotFound

Floppybits wrote: »

Does this mean that people who are not vaccinated will never be able to leave the country from now on?

No but for the short term it may mean getting a test each time. Can't imagine anything near a block standing up in court for even a minute.

Stheno

stephenjmcd wrote: »

I'd be surprised if he knew what day it was today.

It'll all come out later in the week when Government meet with hospitality industry on Thursday, latest reports are a memo for cabinet next Tuesday on the back of Thursdays meeting.

That's true enough

I'm just sick of the endless leaks

Furze99

There's a lot of noise at the moment re bits of paper to prove vaccination etc. Watch this evaporate in the next week or so when the HSE / Government will be claiming that all those 60-69 now double dosed. That critical gap/ misstep has been the elephant in the room and the primary reason that indoor hospitality etc could not reopen this week.

is_that_so

Floppybits wrote: »

Does this mean that people who are not vaccinated will never be able to leave the country from now on?

No, negative PCR will still apply.

OwenM

JRant wrote: »

It's a perfect example of someone making decisions with absolutely no skin in the game and therefore doesn't really care about even short term implications nevermind medium to long term.

You assume he has no humanity and that is unfair.

He is weak and indecisive, no argument there. The most remarkable aspect of his whole career is how someone so indecisive managed to become leader of a country and why he wanted it if he won't use the power he has.

In France there is a saying

'To Govern is to choose'

but Micheal won't choose, he hides behind others in case he is wrong.

"Cometh the hour, cometh the (wrong) man"

Leo is quite happy to let Micheal be his mudguard here though, he will say he wasn't Taoiseach when this abdication of power and responsibility was happening.

stephenjmcd

Stheno wrote: »

That's true enough

I'm just sick of the endless leaks

Bit misleading from the times, he didn't actually mention indoor hospitality at all.

He was on about public transport full capacity in August, just not a big bang like the UK

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1412322849604485126?s=20

facehugger99

paw patrol wrote: »

Leo either tbh.
Leo is much younger than Martin and will eventually out grow the Dail - he is aiming for a future in some global organisation like EU/UN. He doesn't care either once he looks commanding for the betters in those organisations.
He also has some popularity in the world economic forum so he'll probably want a shot at that too.

I've said it before but the people making the decisions are not going to be the ones picking up the cheque. They will be well-insulated from the on-coming horror-show.

It is predominantly the youth of this country that have been sacrificed. I am very surprised at the passive manner in which they have rolled over while their futures have been mortgaged. There really has been a lack of leadership from student union leaders and other youth representative bodies - presumably all were too afraid of being labeled heartless granny-killers.

Ballynally

is_that_so wrote: »

No, negative PCR will still apply.

You will be able to fly out fr july 19 w proof of a negative pcr test or having had covid and recovered. And proof of vaccination. If you do a pcr test you get a result and you can use that. They are sending out proof of vaccination letters so they can use that in case the DCC isnt ready by july 19.
Not sure about those who've had Covid19 and recovered. A letter?

paw patrol

Stheno wrote: »

That's true enough

I'm just sick of the endless leaks

i think everybody no matter what said of the restrictions debate can agree on that. the leaking and floating of bad news in advance over the whole crisis has been a woeful part of the government strategy

is_that_so

Furze99 wrote: »

There's a lot of noise at the moment re bits of paper to prove vaccination etc. Watch this evaporate in the next week or so when the HSE / Government will be claiming that all those 60-69 now double dosed. That critical gap/ misstep has been the elephant in the room and the primary reason that indoor hospitality etc could not reopen this week.

The primary reason is that NPHET advised against it backed up by their huge projections and the government accepted that advice. The HSE had nothing to do with it. As for the 60-69, that is no longer an issue. We still have 30% of the adult population unvaccinated and if Delta is the hurricane/whirlwind/tsunami that's claimed then higher cases are very likely. So far that has not happened but much higher levels of say 1,000+ cases will probably put more in hospital. Even that 1,000 a day may be too high a guess as we are now not doing what could have precipitated this surge.

MOH

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I have to say I find the personal obsession of some posters here for Holohan and the other prominent NPHET members quite disturbing.

You know there's a "report post" button?
There also wasn't a single such post I could see in the 4 pages preceding your one

crossman47 wrote: »

You can disagree with their decisions but to say you despise them is ridiculous. they are people doing their best under constant pressure. I don't know what you work at but how would you like everything you do exposed to public scrutiny and ridicule by some people who don't understand a complex picture. I have nothing but sympathy for them.

It comes with the job, when you take the €187,000 per year and hold daily press conferences to influence public opinion and occasionally try to undermine the elected government, who spend the rest of the time using you for political cover.