Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

paw patrol

facehugger99 wrote: »

I've said it before but the people making the decisions are not going to be the ones picking up the cheque. They will be well-insulated from the on-coming horror-show.

It is predominantly the youth of this country that have been sacrificed. I am very surprised at the passive manner in which they have rolled over while their futures have been mortgaged. There really has been a lack of leadership from student union leaders and other youth representative bodies - presumably all were too afraid of being labeled heartless granny-killers.

you did indeed - I remember it well.
I remember the flak you and others took for your "conspiracies" which have nearly with 100% accuracy been fulfilled.

and many of the detractors who said you (and others) were mad far right lunatics etc... are now cheerleading the very measures they said would never happen.
you couldn't make this up

paw patrol

is_that_so wrote: »

No, negative PCR will still apply.

you can leave ireland on an antigen only depends on country you are going too
but most (if not all) only require antigen - mean in europe

returning to Ireland needs a PCR.
Ireland is best in the class again :rolleyes:

hopefully the antigen will be brought in here - for one our tourism needs it

andrewbrowne

So will I eventually need to be vaccinated in order to do indoor activity, gyms, bars restaurants etc????

What exactly is the story or the expectations of this being the case?? I don't fancy doing a test of some sort everytime I go into an establishment or other

is_that_so

paw patrol wrote: »

you did indeed - I remember it well.
I remember the flak you and others took for your "conspiracies" which have nearly with 100% accuracy been fulfilled.

and many of the detractors who said you (and others) were mad far right lunatics etc... are now cheerleading the very measures they said would never happen.
you couldn't make this up

Is this the settling of accounts phase of COVID?! Who cares who said what! We've all been wrong at times and we've all changed opinions as circumstances evolved. Wearing your Captain Hindsight costume just means you're remembering things that are little use to us and we can't reverse any past actions.

is_that_so

andrewbrowne wrote: »

So will I eventually need to be vaccinated in order to do indoor activity, gyms, bars restaurants etc????

What exactly is the story or the expectations of this being the case?? I don't fancy doing a test of some sort everytime I go into an establishment or other

The gym is fine and the other restrictions will disappear over time. The test/cert idea is still under discussion but the hospitality sector really don't want to implement it at all. The expectations there is that it could take quite a while until they do open.

facehugger99

paw patrol wrote: »

i think everybody no matter what said of the restrictions debate can agree on that. the leaking and floating of bad news in advance over the whole crisis has been a woeful part of the government strategy

It is wholly symptomatic of a Government afraid to lead and make decisions.

Everything has to be leaked in advance to ensure there is no mainstream or social-media backlash.

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

August



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/indoor-dining-may-not-open-until-august-eamon-ryan-says-1.4612953

And on the 1 of August, it will be only 3 and a half weeks until the schools are due to start reopening and we can't jeopardize that🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Ballynally

paw patrol wrote: »

you can leave ireland on an antigen only depends on country you are going too
but most (if not all) only require antigen - mean t

I dont think you are correct about leaving Ireland w an antigen test despite it being accepted in the country of arrival.
You probably wont be able to get into the airport..
Caveat, travelling to the UK only might have different rules.
Ireland has suspended the common travel area rules atm, afaik.

paw patrol

is_that_so wrote: »

Is this the settling of accounts phase of COVID?!

yes , yes it is.

is_that_so wrote: »

Who cares who said what!

I care cos I was pilloried here and in my PM. and guess what i was right!

is_that_so wrote: »

We've all been wrong at times and we've all changed opinions as circumstances evolved. Wearing your Captain Hindsight costume just means you're remembering things that are little use to us and we can't reverse any past actions.

and in fairness to face hugger - he was spot on 99% of the time.

I wasn't much wrong either - go read my posts of last aug/sept when I spent time reading up on this on this and dismantled the entire process .

Captain Hindsight is good for the soul and points out that the state was always wrong at most decisions - feted by cheerleading monkeys and clowns.
And I'm angry at many things - a huge list I won't bother to list but saying the entire 15months of missed opportunities and a paused life for us all (but esp my family) all enabled by fearful gullible fools who gave up everything for a some pie in the sky protection by NPHET that never existed.

paw patrol

Ballynally wrote: »

I dont think you are correct about leaving Ireland w an antigen test despite it being accepted in the country of arrival.
You probably wont be able to get into the airport..

fella I know in spain at the min on an antigen only test
from dublin airport

I knew a fella who flew to swiss after having covid based soley on the sms from the HSE saying he had covid and they counted the 2 weeks.

paw patrol

paw patrol wrote: »

I couldn't agree more.
It's amazing how we are now discussing the workability of the proposed system rather than the utter horrifying nature of a government imposed 2 tier society.
This is mandatory vaccination by proxy which is horrifying and the stuff of an authoritarian dystopia.

I have written to my TDs to gauge their opinion on this and when they will the want this vaccine pass lifted.



It's mad what a bit of hyped up fear and removal of services can do to people. People need to resist this robustly.
It's covid19 vaccine now, once the precedent is set it can be anything.

Your last sentence:

‘ it’s covid 19 vaccine now, once the precedent is set it can be anything.’

If that doesn’t set alarms bells ringing make people sit up and take notice.

Floppybits

is_that_so wrote: »

The primary reason is that NPHET advised against it backed up by their huge projections and the government accepted that advice. The HSE had nothing to do with it. As for the 60-69, that is no longer an issue. We still have 30% of the adult population unvaccinated and if Delta is the hurricane/whirlwind/tsunami that's claimed then higher cases are very likely. So far that has not happened but much higher levels of say 1,000+ cases will probably put more in hospital. Even that 1,000 a day may be too high a guess as we are now not doing what could have precipitated this surge.

So we hear today that 50% of the adult population are now fully vaccinated. I would assume that would cover all the at risk groups? If this is the case they we should see cases increasing but not a huge increase in hospitalisations if the vaccines are working. Wasn't the problem with NPHET's modelling is that they did not take vaccinations into account?

is_that_so

paw patrol wrote: »

yes , yes it is.


I care cos I was pilloried here and in my PM. and guess what i was right!




and in fairness to face hugger - he was spot on 99% of the time.

I wasn't much wrong either - go read my posts of last aug/sept when I spent time reading up on this on this and dismantled the entire process .

Captain Hindsight is good for the soul and points out that the state was always wrong at most decisions - feted by cheerleading monkeys and clowns.
And I'm angry at many things - a huge list I won't bother to list but saying the entire 15months of missed opportunities and a paused life for us all (but esp my family) all enabled by fearful gullible fools who gave up everything for a some pie in the sky protection by NPHET that never existed.

You seem to be more keen to be right, an illness of our internet times. People robustly challenging your posts is not a sign that you were pilloried, more like evidence of a persecution complex. I'd also add that name calling add nothing to civil and rational debate.

I've had my fair share of such challenges but you deal with them and even ignore some of them. After all these are digital people who have no meaning whatsoever in our lives.

Sobit1964

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/05/sajid-javid-has-finally-broken-taboo-admitted-lockdowns-cost/

Sajid Javid has finally broken the taboo and admitted that lockdowns cost lives, too

Any possibility of an open and honest debate around the health costs of lockdown has been crushed by the ferocious obsession with a singular focus on Covid-19.All else has been ignored and, despite our best efforts, we have made very little progress in forcing the non-Covid health crisis on to the main agenda.

One of the main issues with discussing the non-Covid health crisis is that we just won’t know the full damage, or anywhere near it, for years to come. In comparison to the relentless barrage of daily Covid statistics, we never stood a chance at properly keeping it in the public spotlight.

Lockdowns and restrictions have severe consequences. It's clear that Javid understands that. I’ve never been more hopeful that we’ve turned a corner. We need to fully acknowledge the crisis, openly discuss it and tackle it with the same vigour with which we’ve battled Covid.

Finally, some well overdue discussion of the very real costs of lockdown and restrictions, the sort of discussion thats been roundly attacked by several posters on this thread. The UK is leading Europe on getting real and on with life, Ireland is at the back of the pack.

gozunda

Floppybits wrote: »

So we hear today that 50% of the adult population are now fully vaccinated. I would assume that would cover all the at risk groups? If this is the case they we should see cases increasing but not a huge increase in hospitalisations if the vaccines are working. Wasn't the problem with NPHET's modelling is that they did not take vaccinations into account?

The model did indeed take vaccinations into account - but didn't include projections the extra vaccines which were to be made available younger cohorts over coming months.

As to the risk groups there's still a significant cohort in the 69_50 who received AZ who have yet to receive their second dose. Estimate is that they will be completed in the next couple of weeks.

is_that_so

Floppybits wrote: »

So we hear today that 50% of the adult population are now fully vaccinated. I would assume that would cover all the at risk groups? If this is the case they we should see cases increasing but not a huge increase in hospitalisations if the vaccines are working. Wasn't the problem with NPHET's modelling is that they did not take vaccinations into account?

At risk should be but not quite enough to protect everyone else. Well the say they considered it. Their hypothesis, as I understand it, is that these huge predictions, if they come true will lead to more hospital cases eventually. That may also be the case but most unvaccinated now are in age groups that did not experience any serious level of hospitalisations. There are questions about assumptions they made with their models, especially data from the UK as an example.

Floppybits

Sobit1964 wrote: »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/05/sajid-javid-has-finally-broken-taboo-admitted-lockdowns-cost/

Finally, some well overdue discussion of the very real costs of lockdown and restrictions, the sort of discussion thats been roundly attacked by several posters on this thread. The UK is leading Europe on getting real and on with life, Ireland is at the back of the pack.

Isn't that the Irish way, to not discuss these things and bury them away in a dark closet and never to be opened as we have seen the Mother and baby homes, the state sponsored church abuse and sex. We as a nation need to grow up and start discussing these things not matter who uncomfortable they might be.

Hurrache

The Telegraph and Javid, the recent blow in to the Dept of Health in the UK. The Telegraph, the propaganda outlet for the Tories, and Javid, former banker with still ties to the financial industry, who's priority is business and money.

Yeah, there's a perfect combination as to why we should not listen to anything in that story with regards to health.

Sobit1964

Hurrache wrote: »

The Telegraph and Javid, the recent blow in to the Dept of Health in the UK. The Telegraph, the propaganda outlet for the Tories, and Javid, former banker with still ties to the financial industry, who's priority is business and money.

Yeah, there's a perfect combination as to why we should not listen to anything in that story with regards to health.

Its refreshing to hear some grownup discussion when the past year and a half have been so:

https://twitter.com/MalkyTHE/status/1412091304440385540

Floppybits

is_that_so wrote: »

At risk should be but not quite enough to protect everyone else. Well the say they considered it. Their hypothesis, as I understand it, is that these huge predictions, if they come true will lead to more hospital cases eventually. That may also be the case but most unvaccinated now are in age groups that did not experience any serious level of hospitalisations. There are questions about assumptions they made with their models, especially data from the UK as an example.

How long has the delta variant been in the country now? If it has been here for more that 3 weeks should we not be seeing a rise in hospitalisation cases? If the vaccines are working then yes we will see the number of cases of covid rise because don't stop people getting covid but we shouldn't see a huge rise is hospital cases and if this is the case then basically covid should now be treated and like the flu.

bucketybuck

Hurrache wrote: »

Yeah, there's a perfect combination as to why we should not listen to anything in that story with regards to health.

Your post is a remarkable example of what happens in this forum.

The article makes some interesting points but you don't actually want to hear them, just dismiss out of hand because they don't fit with the side you picked.

Why not read it and take the points on their own merit instead of just shooting the messenger?

is_that_so

bucketybuck wrote: »

Your post is a remarkable example of what happens in this forum.

The article makes some interesting points but you don't actually want to hear them, just dismiss out of hand because they don't fit with the side you picked.

Why not read it and take the points on their own merit instead of just shooting the messenger?

Given the unapologetic bias some messengers have, sometimes that matters more. There is also our own natural bias to seek out opinions or "evidence" that proves what we think is true, so a lot of bias to filter!

bucketybuck

Sobit1964 wrote: »

Finally, some well overdue discussion of the very real costs of lockdown and restrictions, the sort of discussion thats been roundly attacked by several posters on this thread. The UK is leading Europe on getting real and on with life, Ireland is at the back of the pack.

It is well over a year since I read of one man saying that we "needed to have an adult conversation about death".

It is scary that over a year later we are still not allowed to have that conversation, and scarier again that it is the Brexit Britain of Boris Johnson that is leading the way in having adult conversations about pandemic responses.

bucketybuck

is_that_so wrote: »

Given the unapologetic bias some messengers have, sometimes that matters more. There is also our own natural bias to seek out opinions or "evidence" that proves what we think is true, so a lot of bias to filter!

The three comments quoted in the OP were all perfectly sensible and reasonable, they should generate debate among any honest group. To see them dismissed out of hand says a lot.

Hurrache

bucketybuck wrote: »

Your post is a remarkable example of what happens in this forum.

The article makes some interesting points but you don't actually want to hear them, just dismiss out of hand because they don't fit with the side you picked.

Why not read it and take the points on their own merit instead of just shooting the messenger?

The same Javid, in the commons, said that they're entering into unchartered territory warning that the number of daily cases may rise to 100,000 a day when they lift their restrictions. And bear in mind, the main changes were just around the wearing of masks indoors and public transport, a very small inconvenience but has an exponential benefit.

That's the health secretary that is. His main priority is to limit the economic affect of the wave he's predicting due to their actions, not the affect on those at risk or those yet to be vaccinated.

Doctor Jimbob

Hurrache wrote: »

The Telegraph and Javid, the recent blow in to the Dept of Health in the UK. The Telegraph, the propaganda outlet for the Tories, and Javid, former banker with still ties to the financial industry, who's priority is business and money.

Yeah, there's a perfect combination as to why we should not listen to anything in that story with regards to health.

That's a fascinating stance coming from someone who was sharing tweets from fearmonger extraordinaire Eric Feigl-Ding a few days ago.

Floppybits

bucketybuck wrote: »

The three comments quoted in the OP were all perfectly sensible and reasonable, they should generate debate among any honest group. To see them dismissed out of hand says a lot.

It is the way of things over here though. You see it all the time people dismissing articles or comments because they came from a particular media outlet or it was on twitter or some other such medium.

paw patrol

is_that_so wrote: »

You seem to be more keen to be right, an illness of our internet times.

some would claim armchair psychology is also an illness.
so here we are - like the spiderman meme pointing at each other.

except I genuinely hoped I was wrong - that this mess was worth the price.
It wasn't

is_that_so wrote: »

People robustly challenging your posts is not a sign that you were pilloried, more like evidence of a persecution complex.

I wish it was robust challenging but it went beyond that - unless you call people sneering at you that you wanted people to die for a pint - a mild example

is_that_so wrote: »

I'd also add that name calling add nothing to civil and rational debate.

perhaps but it's the internet and not the trinity debating society.

is_that_so wrote: »

I've had my fair share of such challenges but you deal with them and even ignore some of them. After all these are digital people who have no meaning whatsoever in our lives.

I ignored the restrictions from last june -
of course I couldn't command the kids activities to reopen nor the shops but in terms of going places , visiting people and I had access to a shebeen/bar which was nice.
The internet isn't real nor does it have any impact on me but doesn't mean while I'm here I won't call out horsesh1t when I see it.

Sobit1964

Hurrache wrote: »

The same Javid, in the commons, said that they're entering into unchartered territory warning that the number of daily cases may rise to 100,000 a day when they lift their restrictions.

That's the health secretary that is. His main priority is to limit the economic affect, not the affect on those at risk or those yet to be vaccinated.

You didn't read the article then? Maybe have a read of a BBC one instead

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57678942

Why it's time to think differently about Covid

Back in January, about one in 10 infections could be expected to translate into a hospital admission 10 days later. Now that figure appears to be somewhere between one in 40 and one in 50. What is more, those ending up in hospital seem to be less sick, and need less intensive treatment. The risk of death, as a result, has reduced even further. In January about one in 60 cases resulted in someone dying. Today it's fewer than one in 1,000.

But serious illness happens all the time. In the depths of winter there can be 1,000 admissions a day for respiratory infections. Flu alone killed more than 20,000 people in England in the winter of 2017-18. There was no talk of the need to introduce restrictions or curtail freedoms then. "That is the context we need to start seeing Covid in," says Prof Robert Dingwall, a sociologist at Nottingham Trent University.

But the idea of letting a virus spread when we have spent so long trying to do the opposite requires a psychological shift.

Dr Muge Cevik, an infectious disease expert at University of St Andrews, says this will take time. "We need to accept Covid is here. We won't be able to completely stop the spread. We are now at the stage of managing the virus." She would like to see more emphasis now on recovery, tackling the backlog in hospital care for non-Covid treatments, dealing with the economic fallout and loss of jobs and the emotional and mental health toll the pandemic has had.

Once again this excellent article demonstrates a grown up approach to dealing with the virus now and in the future. Once again Ireland remains firmly at the back of the European group, limping and with a gimpy leg.

gozunda

Sobit1964 wrote: »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/05/sajid-javid-has-finally-broken-taboo-admitted-lockdowns-cost/

Sajid Javid has finally broken the taboo and admitted that lockdowns cost lives, too


Finally, some well overdue discussion of the very real costs of lockdown and restrictions, the sort of discussion thats been roundly attacked by several posters on this thread. The UK is leading Europe on getting real and on with life, Ireland is at the back of the pack.

The "UK" aka Boris and his new Minister of Health have apparently decided to turn the clock back to March 2020 and let nature take its course and are back to the natural herd immunity theory.

I suspect Boris's usual populist leanings and Sajid Javid background as a merchant banker and a serious Margaret Thatcher acolyte has more got to so with the recent decision to dump all covid controls than any humanitarian leanings or concern about lives tbf.

Looking at social media- it would appear the new minister or his ideas are not necessarily as popular as some would suggest

But to your point on 'real costs' - I believe discussion on that is important and it will likley take years of analysis and real discussion as to balancing the human costs of the pandemic - but that's a thread yet to come.