Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097847#Comment_118097847

I have no intentions of following him down rabbit holes on vaccine effects, especially when I do not see that infections are the major problem and the author of the report doesn`t agree with floorpies narrative that we should not be vacciniating further people.

For me the major problem is the severity of the infections and their effects on health care when it comes to dealing with them through hospitalisation and ICU, not the number of those infected. Even the author of the report he is attempting to use to promote his narrative is encouraging more people to get vaccinated, not less, and is encouraging people to avail of booster shots. He has also stated that should individuals become infected they remain protected against severe disease and death.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096930#Comment_118096930

Clearly

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097820#Comment_118097820

The numbers infected are an irrelevance at this stage. What is relevant when it comes to those infected is the severity and the treatment required in both hospitalisations and ICU care, and we see that the unvaccinated percentage of the population are very much disproportionate in requiring both. Vaccinating less, or people not availing of booster shots, is only going to exacerbate the pressure on health care not lessen it.

floorpie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098064#Comment_118098064

I have NO narrative. Quote a reply to you from me that has a narrative. I've trying to tell you what the study finds, because your interpretation was wrong.

I'm flabbergasted at how intellectually dishonest so many posters here are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098138#Comment_118098138

THIS is a narrative. You're ignoring the findings of a robust study, and instead segueing into your own opinion. This is dishonest and amounts to science-denialism in my eyes.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098148#Comment_118098148

Bit of a neck accusing someone of science denialism when you refuse to recognise that the real elephant in the room is the disproportionate pressure on health services from those unvaccinated in terms of hospital and ICU care.

As I mentioned to astofool I have no intention of following you down rabbit holes, and as far as I am concerned we have nothing further to discuss on the subject of those who have chosen not to avail of a vaccine.

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097696#Comment_118097696

I disagree about your lockdowns. Done and dusted i’m afraid. Vaccinated people who are unlikely to clog the hospital system shouldn’t and will not be placed under lockdown. It won’t happen and i’m willing to bet on it.

floorpie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098238#Comment_118098238

My consistent position is that focus should be turned to hospital capacity. You can focus on the unvaccinated if you like, but this will not solve hospital capacity in any way, shape or form. This has been obvious to me for a year based on vaccine trials. Continue to ignore all evidence, adults are 99% vaccinated in some counties, lets see what happens this winter.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098254#Comment_118098254

Nobody should be placed under lockdown in Ireland, but it's going to happen. The evidence that it will happen is in the last 2 pages of this thread (but goes back many months)

Vaccinated people who are unlikely to clog the hospital system shouldn’t and will not be placed under lockdown

There are more vaccinated people in ICU now than unvaccinated people at this time last year, when we were put into level 5. Still, nobody should be locked down.

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098277#Comment_118098277

You’re comparing a pointless metric. No there won’t a lockdown

floorpie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098334#Comment_118098334

ICU capacity/numbers is the only important metric no?

growleaves

The dismissal of the concerns of Central and Eastern Europeans in Ireland about the vaccine push is very flippant.

"Oh they're just doing that because they lived under Soviet government"

Irish people generally have no idea how the Soviet system operated.They have a vague idea of people being shot, sentenced to salt mines in Siberia or put in gulags. But most ordinary people never experienced any of these things.

The Soviet Union had an internal passport system and a general atmosphere of name-calling, intimidation, character smearing, coercion, blackmail, threats, bribes, 'official' scientism, 'official' medicine, ridicule.

In the Era of Stagnation (1964-1982) people who didn't do what the government ordered were dis-employed and found it difficult to find work anywhere. Lech Walesa was forced from his job as an electrician before he became a full-time dissident/activist. This was only a few decades ago so Central and Eastern Europeans still alive today remember it.

This dis-employment is the same as what is happening now in Italy, Lithuania, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sinagpore. People are being excluded from the labour market, public and "private" buildings, commerce etc over a personal decision. In Indonesia people can't walk on the beach without a QR code.

When historians look back at this time it will serve as a parallel of the Brehznev years which as I said were mostly non-violent - as violence is not always the main thing in a regime of coercion.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097816#Comment_118097816

There's no point in arguing with one of the bullies.

Equal rights are now conditional on x or y behaviour - so they're not fundamental rights anymore.

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097652#Comment_118097652

It is voluntary.

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098351#Comment_118098351

That is mostly occupied from a certain 8% of the population i might add.

hospitals have stabilised somewhat, we’ll hit peak soon. USA cases have dropped 58% since Sept. Their hospitalisations down approx 50% and deaths approx 33% . Apparently UK is starting to decline also. If i was a gambler i’d wager that we won’t be going back to lockdown.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097434#Comment_118097434

There's much more to life than eating out and drinking in pubs.

floorpie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098428#Comment_118098428

That is mostly occupied from a certain 8% of the population i might add.

This really doesn't matter imo. The capacity is the capacity. If all unvaccinated disappeared we'll still an issue in the coming weeks.

hospitals have stabilised somewhat, we’ll hit peak soon. USA cases have dropped 58% since Sept. Apparently UK is starting to decline also. If i was a gambler i’d wager that we won’t be going back to lockdown.

My belief is that we should have done what most of the US and the UK did, as you say, i.e. opening during summer. We're opening up at the worst time possible. I don't want a lockdown, I just don't see how to avoid it now.

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098522#Comment_118098522

I doubt it. If you did eliminate the unvaxxed growth in hospitals would slow right down, if you’re vaccinated you’ll less likely end up in hospital that is why i think we are near the peak now. The growth rate is already slowing. We have less in hospital than this time last week. It seems a lot of cases are now in the 5-12 bracket. Not to mention the booster program now under way.

floorpie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098540#Comment_118098540

It's simple maths imo. If vaccines are 80-90% effective in preventing serious illness relative to unvacc (per data so far), 100% of the population is vaccinated, and vaccines do not prevent infection/transmission sufficiently (per data so far), we're in the same position as last year if we have no social distancing compared to last winter, in terms of hospital overcrowding. We'll see I suppose.

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098557#Comment_118098557

That is totally false to say we are in the same position as last year. If we didn’t have vaccines there’s no way in hell we’d have only 500 in hospital and 2-3k cases a day given the freedoms we have for months in the face of the highly contagious delta. Like you say we’ll see. Either way i have plan B for my own situation regarding lockdown.

floorpie

That is totally false to say we are in the same position as last year.

IF no lockdowns/distancing, I'm saying

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098572#Comment_118098572

Either way i have plan B for my own situation regarding lockdown.

Amen. Agree on that

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098557#Comment_118098557

Vaccines are both effective at preventing serious illness (greater than 80-90%, but whatever) and reduce transmission rates, even in the home environment unless you start moving your confidence intervals, the % chance of there being 0 effect is low, the % chance of there being a 50% reduction in transmission is high, based on the data in the paper and the findings of the author of the paper (even ignoring their advice to continue vaccinations to prevent serious disease as that was covered in another paper that they referenced.

And that's remembering that these findings are an update to previous data collected pre-delta that also corroborated the reduced transmission rates among vaccinated.

And the fact that increasing hospital capacity and vaccine rollout are occurring independently of each other such that there is only negatives to stopping the vaccine rollout.

This is what the data says. This is what the health authorities are following, this is what's happening in the real world.

If you are insistent on pushing the narrative that vaccines don't impact on transmission, that will be called out as a lie and misinformation, we've been through the data, we've proven that wrong. To say otherwise at this stage is science denialism (unless you want to start putting the % chances based on confidence intervals of the statement being correct along with it).

You also have ample opportunities to leave your comments calling out the authors on the papers in question, if you are a scientist and convinced their findings are wrong, it would be neglectful of you to let the paper be published in it's current state (and that is again ignoring their comments about severe disease which they reference as source).

edit: I would add that you have invested a lot of time in this narrative, despite countries such as the UK being mostly back to normal, so it's a big bet and let down for you if the UK don't fall back to lockdowns (even though it's a positive thing, I'm confident I'm right and you're wrong here, but there is a small % chance that that isn't the case 😉).

floorpie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098603#Comment_118098603

If you are insistent on pushing the narrative that vaccines don't impact on transmission, that will be called out as a lie and misinformation

Everything you're saying is right except this, imo. There is not a sufficient impact on transmission such that it will prevent overcrowding.

You also have ample opportunities to leave your comments calling out the authors on the papers in question, if you are a scientist and convinced their findings are wrong, it would be neglectful of you to let the paper be published in it's current state 

I peer review papers regularly, publishing venues don't really work like this. Once it's through peer review (which is a really shoddy process), that's really it. It takes many months to publish a paper, from the time the paper is complete. Perhaps even 1+ years for a journal. By the time a paper is published, everybody has moved on to numerous other works. Nobody cares about problems at that stage.

jmlad2020

Hi folks does anyone know if the unvaccinated can gain entry into indoor dining settings with the PCR test EU Covid cert from a private company?

If you can travel the continent surely you can get into a local bar with it.

Thanks

PTH2009

Wish NPHET would do one

So Tony is now worrying parents who in turn will want lockdown which he will have prob recommending to suite his agenda

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098670#Comment_118098670

You mean someone who tested positive and recovered? Yep.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098670#Comment_118098670

No Ireland doesn't accept a PCR test result on the cert.

Some restaurants have a heated, roofed, wind-proof (plastic walls typically) outdoor section if that's any use. There are beer gardens which do food that are similar.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098388#Comment_118098388

An amazing post. But unfortunately the consensus on here and in Ireland is that it's a 'common sense measure'.

darconio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098928#Comment_118098928

Imagine a tourist that flew over to Ireland with a pcr test...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097853#Comment_118097853

If thousands of people are excluded from society because they don't wish to be vaccinated then it's a society that stands for exclusion, but pretends to be for inclusion.

And it's not voluntary if not taking it means you can't take part in society.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118099006#Comment_118099006

You still misunderstand what inclusivity means, repeating your misunderstanding won't fix that. You have equal opportunity to be vaccinated, due to misinformation, YOU are deciding not to get vaccinated and must live with the consequences of taking those choices until the threat SARS-COV2 has on our health system has passed.

The reason you can't go to restaurants is solely down to a choice that you made.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098399#Comment_118098399

You're right.

And if you disagree with what's going on you're from or in another country, apparently.