Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

berocca2016

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101058#Comment_118101058

Ah leave it out, no need to get in a dig about trans people just because you can.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101436#Comment_118101436

It can mutate in any person, vaccinated or not. It can also mutate in any of the host animals it infects (which is many).

The idea that there is some race to get to 100% vaccinated and then covid will just stop in its tracks (or stop mutating) is totally false - if anything it adds evolutionary pressure for the virus to mutate in such a way as to evade vaccine immunity.

darconio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101436#Comment_118101436

Are you absolutely sure that variants are generated by people unvaccinated? For example, I don't know, nobody does, we assume that this is a possibility based on what we've been told, however we have eminent virologists claiming that variants are generated because the virus is mutating when trying to breach the immune system of a vaccinated.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101430#Comment_118101430

I haven`t seen anyone lumping those unable to avail of a vaccine in with those who refuse to avail of one.

A driving licence is not simply a qualification. It is certificate showing that by having it you have been deemed much less likely to cause harm to yourself and others There are those making a point that we should not be vaccinating certain age groups because of their low level of risk to themselves should them become infected. Why should the same not apply to those that drive for age groups that are much less likely to be involved in accidents. Especially in those that cause fatalities. Isn`t the requirements to obtain a driving licence the same regardless of age also discriminatory ?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101496#Comment_118101496

That is how these VOCs have come to be, but it requires other conditions for it to be a possibility. What all locations of where these variants emerged had in common was lots of disease and at the time no vaccinated people.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101359#Comment_118101359

Admittedly it is difficult to tell from the statistics, but even so I very much doubt the disproportionate numbers of those unvaccinated hospitalised and in ICU are all made up of those who are unable to avail of a vaccine.

How can you say that he's lying?..you really drag down the tone of the place with the constant name calling..There are many doctors who think antibody dependent enhancement is a thing..

Just because you just parrot whatever the pharmaceutical industrial complex tells you..

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101571#Comment_118101571

Yes - that skepticism is already here and comes in the form of scrutiny of trials. Not sure how you think people are being coerced into taking it. 8% of our population haven't and their lives haven't been changed for the worse

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101711#Comment_118101711

When more of the world is vaccinated, then there is more evolutionary pressure for a vaccine-resistant mutation, but that doesnt mean it isnt possible now.

Such a mutation could occur in a vaccinated or unvaccinated individual, its essentially a random mutation - the evolutionary aspect is to do with the spread. If it is vaccine evasive then it would spread much faster than other variants as it would have more people to easily infect.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101774#Comment_118101774

ADE is a separate issue to "vaccine-escape" variants. ADE implies vaccination immunity makes subsequent infections worse, vaccine escape is simply existing antibodies/antibody-memory not being good enough for a virus with enough mutation to get around those antibodies. ADE has not been observed or proven yet for SARS-Cov-2 or any of its variants, whereas we have already seen some level of vaccine evasive variants in circulation - however these lack the mutations that make Delta variant so infectious and as such are outcompeted by it.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101793#Comment_118101793

8% of our population haven't and their lives haven't been changed for the worse

lol

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101496#Comment_118101496

I am not saying that. I am saying that vaccination helps to shed the virus quicker, hence decreasing a chance for mutation in a certain person

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101571#Comment_118101571

Your not just sceptical are you! You are so anti vaccines that you have posted you believe that 4 of the variants of concern were due to the vaccine clinical trials in 4 countries. I`m still waiting for the list of the other 54 variants based on your logic that are due to the clinical trials carried out in 54 other countries. In your own good time, but I have been waiting for some time now and no sight or sign of them.

If you had read past the clickbait headlines you would have seen that Professor Ajit Lalvani the author of the study I assume you are referring to said that "should a fully vaccinated individual become infected they remain protected against severe disease and death". He also encouraged those not vaccinated to do so, as well as encouraging uptake of boosters and that the unvaccinated should not rely on the immunity of those fully vaccinated to protect them.

Doesn`t sound as if the author of the study is in agreement with you on vaccines does it ? But then you do not believe in vaccines do you ? For you natural herd immunity from Mother Nature is all that is required. Come to think of it, isn`t that just another of the long list of questions over various threads on how that is going to work and the death toll by just attempting it is put to you that have been ignored ?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101868#Comment_118101868

Not sure what you find funny, shows the level of intelligence in you I guess

darconio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101594#Comment_118101594

Still there's a number of people that are unable to be vaccinated "by choice", and those are discriminated.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118100822#Comment_118100822

Come on now, you cant expect people to read past a headline

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102009#Comment_118102009

There are very few choices in life that do not come with consequences. They weren`t unable to be vaccinated for any other reason than they choose not to. The results of them making that choice has not just had consequences for them alone, but is also adding to the pressure on health services disproportionate to their numbers.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101841#Comment_118101841

The stupidity of the "vaccines cause variants" is that they push for "natural immunity" which, by the same logic, also causes variants (even better ones that evade more of the natural immunity!). It's just not a thing that doctors or scientists worry about bar the recesses of the internet populated by anti-vax loons.

It is an anti-vax talking point parroted by those who don't know any better.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102009#Comment_118102009

That's who we should be trying to get through the pandemic for, the virus doesn't discriminate, it will happily kill those who are vulnerable and can't be immunized by a vaccine or via infection.

Those who do have a choice are making it worse for those who don't have a choice by prolonging the pandemic.

I'm glad you're pretending to have some empathy for them, maybe you could put that empathy into practice and get yourself jabbed.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102564#Comment_118102564

Where have I claimed that vaccines cause variants? Variants can occur in any person, but its a fact that more vaccination introduces more evolutionary pressure for vaccine-evasive variants. The non-vaccine evasive variants are more likely to struggle against vaccine immunity, which leaves them unable to compete with a variant that can evade vaccine antibodies.

The idea that a vaccinated or unvaccinated person is more/less likely to "create" a variant is totally misinformed. Its about the pressure you put on a variant at the population level. The actual mutation is a "random" occurrence, its just a case of whether it thrives or dies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102582#Comment_118102582

How is not getting vaccinated supposed to prolong the pandemic?

If mass vaccination is supposed to end the pandemic, why hasnt it ended here yet? Or anywhere else with large vaccine uptake?

darconio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102582#Comment_118102582

Can you quantify how many exactly, in your opinion, of the 300000 not vaccinated, are prolonging the pandemic? You know those filthy anti-vaxxers that you keep bragging about. All? the 0/12 years old? the people that recovered from covid? The pregnant women? the 12 to 100? The people that cannot get vaccinated due to adverse reaction? Those that are not vaccinated but don't have access to hospitality and hence cannot spread it? The vaccinated that despite having the effect well waned are capable of accessing every outlet? You know is important to understand who should we send exactly to the work camps, it's better to clarify it now, thanks

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102626#Comment_118102626

The random occurrence that creates a mutation is more likely to occur in unvaccinated individuals with high viral loads (and auto-immune diseases). With SARS-COV2, the vaccines specifically go after it's most stable protein (the spike) which also happens to be it's main attack method. If a variant occurred with a different enough spike to evade a vaccine it will also likely not be as effective at infecting people and thus die out, hence why vaccinations against SARS-COV2 haven't had to be changed since alpha. If an escape was to occur, it likely would have happened by now when the virus is at peak infection rates.

The more people vaccinated, the less people taking up hospital beds and the more restrictions can be lifted and we can move beyond the pandemic phase (large infection rates putting health systems under pressure).

Now, it's doubtful we'll get through much more of that 8% because a lot of those people are so entrenched in their wrong ideas that they won't get it, but those same people can't then blame others or vaccines for restrictions being in place (well they can, but it's completely disingenuous).

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102655#Comment_118102655

Break down the 300,000 into groups and we can give it a go, how many "filthy anti-vaxxers" (your words) are there for example? 0-11 year olds aren't in the group of 300,000 who haven't been vaxxed because they can't get vaxxed, neither are those who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons.

More specifically, the 50% of hospital capacity for COVID cases is what they are directly responsible for, if they were vaccinated, our hospitals would have much more capacity and we would have less restrictions (and wouldn't need COVID certs any more).

Are you calling yourself a "filthy anti-vaxxer" by the way? Seems an odd way to refer to oneself.

Can you describe the work camps you're so heated up about? First I've heard of them.

darconio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102718#Comment_118102718

So we are talking about how many exactly? If they are in the hospital they are surely not around to spread covid? When they recover they will be placed on the "good side" so you'll be able to sleep better. Non sure I see the need to revert to personal insult, perhaps you didn't mention filthy but surely it looks like you'll be happy to have them deported in order for the humanity to move on.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102761#Comment_118102761

You don't need to start making strawman arguments.

You wanted specifics and when asked to provide some numbers you reneged.

Those in hospital are a continual flow of people, 12x more likely to be unvaccinated, stem that flow and the restrictions can be dropped, have you been part of that effort or just hurling from the ditch unvaccinated?

mohawk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101876#Comment_118101876

Statistically speaking it is a waste of time to be worried about mutations in Ireland among unvaccinated v vaccinated people and blame the unvaccinated for mutations. This is a worldwide pandemic affecting every corner of the globe. We are a population of about 5million in a world with a population of 7.9 billion. This virus will mutate and continue to mutate and every now and again a mutation will offer an advantage over the previous strain that will allow it to become the dominant strain. There is unequal distribution of vaccines around the world and a new variant can pop up anywhere. This virus is going nowhere no matter how many we vaccinate.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102689#Comment_118102689

Studies have already shown that breakthrough cases in the vaccinated can carry same viral load as unvaccinated. So consider that debunked.

The spike protein is not the most stable protein, they actually have to modify the spike protein used in mRNA vaccines specifically to stabilise it, because without the rest of the virus structure as support, the spike protein would collapse in on itself.

Your statement that a different enough spike protein would simply die out as it cant infect anyone - pure wild speculation. You have nothing to back that up. There are a huge variety of coronaviruses in the world, all with different "spike" proteins that infect different receptors on host cells.

Partial immune escape already has occurred, but delta's infectiousness has outcompeted it. Sub-mutations from delta pose a real and pertinent risk and any variations of delta are being closely monitored for that reason. Thats evolution in action.

Our health service would be overwhelmed even with 100% vaccine coverage, because it is not fit for purpose. The 8% of over 16s not vaccinated are a handy scapegoat, as are the foreigners, children under 12, nightclubs etc etc. The reality is our health service was never fit for purpose, and every year for the 2 decades at least, we have had trolley crises every winter from influenza. ICU and normal bed capacities reached and people lying on trollies in hallways, every year. All over the front pages every year - you've hardly forgotten about that already have you?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102718#Comment_118102718

Numbers from Glynn recently. 2/5 12-15 year olds and 1/5 19-30s probably covers about 2/3 of that.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102539#Comment_118102539

Have we been given any figures to show that it is people who have chosen not to be vaccinated that are adding pressure on health services or if it's people who were unable to be vaccinated?

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103077#Comment_118103077

Nope.

Information on the hospitals can be difficult to figure out at the best of times.

Even the media have stopped reporting vaccination percentages of hospitalisations and icu for the last week for some reason.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102891#Comment_118102891

Let's break this down:

Studies have already shown that breakthrough cases in the vaccinated can carry same viral load as unvaccinated. So consider that debunked.

The vaccinated have that viral load for a shorter period of time and are less likely to be infected in the first place as I noted, and again, this comes up every few posts yet you still keep repeating it. It's simply wrong to keep posting it, but anyway, I'm sure you will post it again showing you don't really understand what you are posting.

The spike protein is not the most stable protein, they actually have to modify the spike protein used in mRNA vaccines specifically to stabilise it, because without the rest of the virus structure as support, the spike protein would collapse in on itself.

You seem to be confusing mutation stability vs. physical stability

Your statement that a different enough spike protein would simply die out as it cant infect anyone - pure wild speculation. You have nothing to back that up. There are a huge variety of coronaviruses in the world, all with different "spike" proteins that infect different receptors on host cells.

Yes, the common cold is a not-novel coronavirus that is not causing a pandemic, if the SARS-COV2 spike protein significantly mutates (which it hasn't) it will likely lose a lot of it's ability to attack human cells, again, this is one of the reasons the vaccines target the spike.

Partial immune escape already has occurred

Delta is able to infect and replicate more rapidly, antibodies gained from vaccines are still effective against it, if there had been vaccine escape, they would not be effective at all (you might as well take a flu vaccine and think it protected against smallpox).

Our health service would be overwhelmed even with 100% vaccine coverage

We would verifiably have 50% more capacity to burn through before being overwhelmed.