Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

darconio

Many more studies would disagree with the fact that mask work, especially the way they are used by the majority (under the chin - pull them up when entering a shop). Here 1 study but I have many more, sorry I wouldn't want to give too much food for thought.

Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation: Physics of Fluids: Vol 33, No 7 (scitation.org)

The results show that a standard surgical and three-ply cloth masks, which see current widespread use, filter at apparent efficiencies of only 12.4% and 9.8%, respectively. Apparent efficiencies of 46.3% and 60.2% are found for KN95 and R95 masks, respectively, which are still notably lower than the verified 95% rated ideal efficiencies.

PTH2009

Father tested positive today

Atm no synthoms and a negative antigen test for me. Its so pain but we'll do all we can to get through it. Separate everything and masks for the next 10 days here's hoping

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119956#Comment_118119956

But no it’s not. Raising eat red meat is linked to cancer and heart disease is only true in certain situations such as over consumption as well as lifestyle circumstances such as obesity, lack of physical activity, excell alcohol intake and an unhealthy BMI. If it’s an appropriate consumption without the other factors there is no link in increased risk. Similarly masks are only needed in circumstances as outlined in the updated October regulations. You are basically saying that if masks aren’t needed in circentation situations, they aren’t needed full stop.

The Big Easy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120217#Comment_118120217

No he's saying if you have risk factors you should reduce or cease red meat consumption, but no one is calling for that to be enforced legally.

Likewise if you're on a crowded bus or crowded indoor space it's probably wise to wear a mask, however it's legally required to wear a mask at all times on public transport and in shops regardless of them being empty or not. If a bus, train or shop is empty, why do you need to wear a a mask?

That's why it's not black or white. You shouldn't mandate a citizenry to behave a certain way when the risks are grey, changeable and not well understood generally. This is when you rely on personal responsibility. Like why you don't ban red meat, to follow the other posters analogy.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120124#Comment_118120124

In your first sentence, you state that studies disagree with the fact that masks work...and then you quote efficiencies showing that they actually do work (nowhere near perfectly but better than no mask).

darconio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120367#Comment_118120367

Yeah studies based on the assumption that you have a mask placed on your face 24/7 or the majority of the time of the exposure. Imagine what happens when you use them like a yo-yo

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120525#Comment_118120525

You wear a mask to bed? You're going a bit overboard.

If you wear it properly over your nose and mouth while out and about (well not outside unless you're constantly getting very close to people) then they'll reduce your chances of being exposed significantly.

If you take it on and off all the time in those situations, then the effectiveness will drop, but not to 0 (depending on how often you have it on or not).

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120326#Comment_118120326

The reason for mandating it on public transport in such a strict fashion is because if vague would be impossible to enforce. It would be completely subjective as to when a bus goes from empty to just enough to require them. Bad law makes hard cases sums it up perfectly.

As for the red meat analogy, I don’t know where to begin. But I’ll try. One person’s over consumption of red and processed meat as well as a combination of other lifestyle factors will not cause the transmission of heart disease and cancers in others. We are not in the middle of a global pandemic of people contracting a disease from it. Completely a straw man argument. A more comparable analogy is our smoking ban. Smoking in Ireland is banned fully in the general workplace, enclosed public places, restaurants, bars, education facilities, healthcare facilities and public transport. . The purpose of the ban is to protect employees and the public from exposure to the harmful and toxic effects of tobacco smoke in the workplace. It wasn’t for the impact smoking had on the smoker. It makes no difference if there is nobody else in these places. From what you are arguing, you believe that there should be an exception for the smoker to smoke in these places if they are empty.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120806#Comment_118120806

I don't wear a mask for my benefit, I wear it for others, some people don't like people breathing on them, they're paranoid I know but that's why I wear a mask. I don't wear it outdoors though

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120124#Comment_118120124

In essence what you are saying is that masks do work for dramatically reducing chance of transmission. Not what you categorically stated that studies disagree that masks works.

You then proceed to say that people who don’t bother to wear them correctly still reduce chances of transmission but at a lower rate. So still better than no mask for reducing risk of transmission.

Now can you think of any other example of wearing something can dramatically reduce the transmission of infection but incorrect wearing lowers efficacy but still better than not wearing at all. Here’s a clue. Its usually latex and hilariously nicknamed naughty bags in Germany.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120921#Comment_118120921

No disagreements here. The odd time I put one on on the way to the shop as It’s about 10 metres away and handier than stopping at entrance to put it on especially with people outside smoking. Have had one (albeit drunk guy) calling me a moron for wearing it outdoors. But I reckon he would have found a reason for calling me that without one too.

air

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119678#Comment_118119678

Have you even read that paper you quoted to support mask wearing? It was submitted in early July of 2020, it consists of a review of various pieces of conjecture and modelling. Total nonsense to even refer to it at this point.

How about you provide some real sources showing an impact on any epidemiological metric (R number, deaths, hospitalisation rates) through the introduction of masks in any particular country?

Masks were introduced in at least 8 EU countries before we brought them in and they had zero impact in each case, this is verifiable from the data published on EUROMOMO and other public health portals and is real world experience, not some BS modelling and theorising.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121037#Comment_118121037

Funnily enough I did read it. Even funnier that I’ve gone through all of the studies quoted here (vast majority peer reviewed and some peer review pending) as part of a case I’m jointly working on.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kxan.com/news/coronavirus/do-face-masks-work-here-are-49-scientific-studies-that-explain-why-they-do/amp/

And do you know what they all backup the thesis that wearing masks reduce transmission. With the rates of surgical masks (the disposable blue ones that are the most common) reducing probability of transmission as significant. I also read this paper which was published last month https://www.poverty-action.org/sites/default/files/publications/Mask_Second_Stage_Paper_20211102.pdf

which says the same thing. The findings were released Sept. 1 on the Innovations for Poverty Action website, prior to their publication in a scientific journal, because the information is considered of pressing importance for public health as the pandemic worsens in many parts of the world.

“We now have evidence from a randomized, controlled trial that mask promotion increases the use of face coverings and prevents the spread of COVID-19,” said Stephen Luby, MD, professor of medicine at Stanford. “This is the gold standard for evaluating public health interventions. Importantly, this approach was designed be scalable in lower- and middle-income countries struggling to get or distribute vaccines against the virus.”

Now do you have any up to date peer reviewed scientific paper that has the thesis that masks don’t reduce transmission rates and not one that says they do but irrelevant due to incorrect wearing. The September 1 findings show that with a few interventions, correct mask wearing was not an issue and transmission rates were greatly reduced.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121037#Comment_118121037

I’d just like to make it clear that there is nothing I like more than learning information that I was unaware of or had an incorrect opinion on. I am never afraid to admit that I’m wrong and in fact, it something I like as it means that I’ve learned something. Apologies if I came across as dismissive or flippant, there’s a million things going on at the moment.

Taking the above, I tried to find the euromomo data referred to in your post and the only thing I found was this https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.29.21258056v1.full.pdf which I don’t think is what you mentioned. If you can, would you be able to post a link for me to read. This is an honest and genuine request and not an underhanded way of making you prove what you said.

anyway, hope you are well. And again apologies if I wasn’t as cordial as I should have been and posters deserve.

Dempo1

So we're open fully , NPHET's last briefing focused primarily on increased social interactions advising we must think carefully, be extra cautious Blaa Blaa, a little toning down on blaming the unvaccinated, a reluctant acceptance, Vacinne protection waning and a bizzare mention of the mid term break being partly to blame for increased numbers of new cases.

Basically nothing to see here so to speak , if we reduce our social interactions we'll be grand.

But curiously whilst Gov continues to be in denial of what is happening in schools, Advising new restrictions not being considered, a vague encouragement of a return to the office and a lean towards living with covid, over at the department of health, this rather curious article this morning .

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40737396.html

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121423#Comment_118121423

Imo, we are where we are now because the of how the department handled contact tracing with schools back in September. Its been spreading in the under 16s and inturn infecting their vaccinated parents which spread it further in the community.

They should have provided extra staff, could have implemented antigen testing but instead as usual, they buried their heads in the sand because its not the schools.

Im not saying its only schools, but this blinkered view that they aren't an issue has been evident throughout the pandemic.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121431#Comment_118121431

I agree and yes it's absolutely not just schools , it's been a shambles led by the DOH, it seems there is no end to the excuses , even the cyber attack that happened months ago brought up at yesterday's HSE Spin session.

It just seems extraordinary that the DOH & Gov seem to be telling the Public to do one thing and at the same time telling their own staff to stay (work) at home , very inspiring messaging whilst waiting lists spiralling out of control and GP's at the end of their thether trying to get patients seen in Hospitals.

I'm listening to morning Ireland, head of acute hospitals asked a simple question, when is the winter plan being published (its November), unable to answer, its just beggars belief.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117761#Comment_118117761

Before the pandemic?

I think Tony is getting concerned about alcohol consumption again

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121478#Comment_118121478

Tony & Co will deflect attention away from the inadequacies of his own Department and HSE and heaven forbid other government departments. 🙄

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121423#Comment_118121423

But curiously whilst Gov continues to be in denial of what is happening in schools, Advising new restrictions not being considered, a vague encouragement of a return to the office and a lean towards living with covid, over at the department of health, this rather curious article this morning .

It's HSE data that says it is not a problem, that it is being brought in from the community. Social mixing is overwhelmingly the main driver of it and always has been. They also point out that COVID is not at all a problem disease for kids.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121564#Comment_118121564

Indeed, HSE data 🙄🤔

Ten of Swords

Mod - can we discuss masks in the mask thread and let's keep this one for discussing restrictions, thanks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058111744/to-mask-or-not-to-two-mask-megathread-cont

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121564#Comment_118121564

At this stage, covid isn't a problem for the vast vast majority of the population yet the report of concern about socialising from nphet members, the who and sound bites from the like Tomas Ryan is ramping up in the media. All to deflect from the real hard questions of the health service.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121947#Comment_118121947

I agree, Paul Reid on Claire Byrne now. Leo predicting 4,000 or more cases today.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121980#Comment_118121980

He's doing his best to scare us.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121988#Comment_118121988

He said it as almost an aside 🙄

Jinglejangle69

There's very sick people in hospital.

No **** Sherlock.

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121980#Comment_118121980

Yes a lot of it down to backlog cases. He also said he doesn’t see restrictions being re imposed.

wrangler

Someone wrote into Tubridy to say her husband won't get vaccinated and the children and grandchildren are refusing to visit.

I just thought, isn't that a great way to keep the inlaws away at christmas 😂

Joking aside, I know a couple in their eighties and they have a son and daughter that wont get vaccinated yet walk in and out of their house every day.

If nothing else, they'll be blamed if their parents do succumb

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122022#Comment_118122022

For now he says as they are coping.

Not far off saying they might need them soon.