Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Zebra3

gozunda wrote: »

Here you go ...

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/threat-assessment-emergence-and-impact-sars-cov-2-delta-variant

Not much there.

Some people will continue to die. We’ve all accepted that. Most sane people anyway.

No mention of the cost involved in shutting down businesses and the loss to the economy. No mention of mental health issues. No mention of problems with delays to other parts of the health service. See this week’s issue with blood needing to be imported from Britain as a very basic example.

No mention of the possible cutbacks that may be imposed on health services as national debt spirals.

It’s purely focused on trying to avoid a small numbers of deaths which now totally pale in to insignificance compared to deaths in other categories.

They also like to use “may” a fair bit.

As we all know the solution to those who deem themselves vulnerable is to continue to look after themselves. Time is up for the suppression of freedom for all of us because a minority are deemed to be vulnerable.

Anyone who is vulnerable will see no change in their lives as they have been protecting themselves from Covid while the rest of us can get on with our lives and we can rebuild society and the economy. Hopefully for the better.

Unless you think the vulnerable should be overly protected at the expense of the rest of us while they take chances with their lives...

So it has been a pretty rough week here undoubtedly with tempers frayed. But just wondering are other countries more positive regarding covid at the moment.

MrMusician18

bucketybuck wrote: »

I am curious about these experts.

Three CMO's, Scotland, England and Ireland. All experts apparently.

Yet when it comes to Covid and the delta variant, one of those three experts is offering very different advice to the other two.

You seem to know a lot about experts, can you explain why this is? If they are experts, how can any of them be wrong?

Different countries, different variables, different health services, different vaccination levels and different risk tolerance.

There are lots of reasons why countries might diverge in there recommendations and all be correct for their own context

bucketybuck

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Different countries, different variables, different health services, different vaccination levels and different risk tolerance.

There are lots of reasons why countries might diverge in there recommendations and all be correct for their own context

So when the CMO of one country gives a vastly different response to the same virus than the CMO's of the two neighbouring countries, its ok, none of them can be wrong because things are different?

Sounds like a no lose situation for the CMO.

Wolf359f

bucketybuck wrote: »

So when the CMO of one country gives a vastly different response to the same virus than the CMO's of the two neighbouring countries, its ok, none of them can be wrong because things are different?

Sounds like a no lose situation for the CMO.

I'd have to personally go with the odds, with the many not the few.
If our CMO is wrong, it's going to be spectacular, if he's right, it's going to be tragic. One tends to follow the pack, if they are right, pump the chest, if they are wrong, at least you're not alone.

charlie14

growleaves wrote: »

You're talking past me that's why. I didn't start a discussion about herd immunity or say anything about it. Go back and read the post I was replying to. A poster wanted to stop the transmission of all illnesses including the common cold, which I said would lead to people getting sick from weakened immune systems. People build up their immunity in general (including to coronaviruses) through exposure to infections that aren't serious.

So I ask you again, do you want people to avoid all illnesses even after the pandemic is over? (That's what's under discussion)

What is under discussion is your assertion that people will build up their natural immunity to corona viruses (which I`m assuming includes Covid-19).
My question, which you keep avoiding, is how many years you estimate this to take until herd immunity is achieved, and the yearly deaths for that period.

bucketybuck

Wolf359f wrote: »

I'd have to personally go with the odds, with the many not the few.
If our CMO is wrong, it's going to be spectacular, if he's right, it's going to be tragic. One tends to follow the pack, if they are right, pump the chest, if they are wrong, at least you're not alone.

He can't be wrong. Doesn't matter what happens next, he will have been right and everybody else will have been wrong.

MOR316

bucketybuck wrote: »

He can't be wrong. Doesn't matter what happens next, he will have been right and everybody else will have been wrong.

Very simple way around it...

Make Tony stand behind the Taoiseach at press conferences and let him speak when a question, that relates to him, can be answered.
That way, he knows who's in charge and it sends a message. The way it should have been from the start!

Unfortunately, the people in Government have no backbone so...

Micky 32

No more lockdowns for fully vaccinated Germans:

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1232590/

gozunda

Zebra3 wrote: »

Not much there.
....

Running off with the goalposts?

Just as a reminder. This was your what you asked

Zebra3 wrote: »

....

It really looks like we need a second opinion when what’s been given here looks so different to so much of the rest of Europe.

As we live in a democracy, members of NPHET would have no objection to this, right?

Its fairly evident that the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control brief for the next few months is broadly in line with here whether we like it or otherwise.

But you're not happy with that answer? OK.

Klonker

Micky 32 wrote: »

No more lockdowns for fully vaccinated Germans:

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1232590/

Think its an attempt to get more vaccine uptake and it'll probably work.

Klonker

gozunda wrote: »

Running off with the goalposts?

Just as a reminder. This was your what you asked



Its fairly evident that the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control brief for the next few months etc is broadly in line with here whether we like it or otherwise.

But you're not happy with that answer? OK.

They said not to have indoor dining open until late July and then only for vaccinated was it? Must have missed that.

Wolf359f

Micky 32 wrote: »

No more lockdowns for fully vaccinated Germans:

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1232590/

Yeah we ruled out domestic vaccine passports....well until MM's last speech.
It's the logic way, you're not restricting people, more so your unrestricting vaccinated people.
But as a society we wouldn't accept it.

gozunda

Micky 32 wrote: »

No more lockdowns for fully vaccinated Germans:

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1232590/

I believe that idea was ditched and was being referred to as apartheid here when the suggestion that only fully vaccinated people would be allowed to dine indoors but those who were unvaccinated couldn't.

I wonder how that idea will go down in Germany for shopping or attending concerts as detailed*(*ie at some future point in time)

Edit. Just to make that very clear ...

Klonker

There's no way government are going to have some antigen testing system in place for 19th or even 26th July and very unlikely they'll even have a system for vaccination certs. With the news of the Romanian vaccines and NIAC advice for J&J and AZ I really think government should just open indoor hospitality fully on 26th July. Gives a few more weeks to get more vaccines out and by that stage you might be talking 60% fully vaccinated and 80% partially vaccinated. Hopefully cases don't spiral too much from now until then and that UK hospitalisations figures continue to remain relatively low.

Klonker

gozunda wrote: »

I believe that idea was ditched and was being referred to as apartheid here when the suggestion that only fully vaccinated people would be allowed to dine indoors but those who were unvaccinated couldn't.

I wonder how that idea will go down in Germany for shopping or attending concerts as detailed...

Sounds like their talking about a hypothetical future lockdown by which stage everyone who wants a vaccine would be offered one unlike the one suggested for that you allude too. And by the way the already have a cert system in place, one that includes antigen testing so that nobody is discriminated against, again unlike here what was proposed for here.

But you know these things but just like to misrepresent it to support your (and NPHETs) view

Stormyteacup

Wolf359f wrote: »

Yeah we ruled out domestic vaccine passports....well until MM's last speech.
It's the logic way, you're not restricting people, more so your unrestricting vaccinated people.
But as a society we wouldn't accept it.

Germany’s Covpass will shortly provide link to proof of negative antigen test. So yes fully vaccinated people will not be restricted as before. Unvaccinated people will be restricted in so far as they may, when necessary during a hypothetical future spike, still need to provide evidence of a negative antigen test.

Apples and oranges really - there will be inconvenience being unvaccinated with more restrictions than fully vaccinated persons, however there will be options to obtain same status as fully vaccinated without being vaccinated. Unlike what’s being proposed here, where you are either vaccinated or... tough luck.

Stormyteacup

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Germany’s Covpass will shortly provide link to proof of negative antigen test. So yes fully vaccinated people will not be restricted as before. Unvaccinated people will be restricted in so far as they may, when necessary during a hypothetical future spike, still need to provide evidence of a negative antigen test.

Apples and oranges really - there will be inconvenience being unvaccinated with more restrictions than fully vaccinated persons, however there will be options to obtain same status as fully vaccinated without being vaccinated. Unlike what’s being proposed here, where you are either vaccinated or... tough luck.

When put like that sounds like a roll back to the old days in Ireland re contraception it was disallowed and women could only get it with permission from the parish priest and then probably from England or Northern Ireland. Maybe a different scenario now but just shows how we usually lag behind other European nations.

gozunda

Klonker wrote: »

Sounds like their talking about a hypothetical future lockdown by which stage everyone who wants a vaccine would be offered one unlike the one suggested for that you allude too. And by the way the already have a cert system in place, one that includes antigen testing so that nobody is discriminated against, again unlike here what was proposed for here.

But you know these things but just like to misrepresent it to support your (and NPHETs) view

You may wish to check but I made no reference to this being brought in at present. Sure sounds like they're planning some - what you were calling discrimination for the future. How will that go down is the question.

But sure klonker that's it. Everyone you disagree with (even when there's nothing different to your own summation) is a big old Nphet supporter and everything is a misrepresentation. Yup for sure that's how it goes.

Shelga

Just listened back to the interview with Michael O’Leary on RTÉ, it made me alternate between chuckling at his blunt manner and feeling horrified at how subservient we are to NPHET. It’s hard to disagree with a single word the man had to say!

Bobeagleburger

July 19th must be a pipedream for indoor dining going by the mess over in the UK particularly Scotland.

Hope I'm wrong.

MOR316

MOR316 wrote: »

It's Gavin James...I'll stay in my home

I googled the name to see what he was like and found this RTE article which links to this YT vid:

A watered down, insipid riff on Paul Simon's 'Call me Al' (which is no great shakes in itself). I wouldn't cross the road to listen to it let alone stand in a sheep pen to savour the magic :pac:

normanoffside

6 wrote: »

July 19th must be a pipedream for indoor dining going by the mess over in the UK particularly Scotland.

Hope I'm wrong.

What mess?
England and Scotland have indoor dining opened a long time and are moving to remove the final few restrictions in the coming weeks.

brickster69

6 wrote: »

July 19th must be a pipedream for indoor dining going by the mess over in the UK particularly Scotland.

Hope I'm wrong.

You can expect cases to rise quite a bit in the UK in the near future i think.

https://twitter.com/fairyfairhurst/status/1411052314056658950

is_that_so

brickster69 wrote: »

You can expect cases to rise quite a bit in the UK in the near future i think.

https://twitter.com/fairyfairhurst/status/1411052314056658950

Not questioning this observation but it is one of the problems of this where there is so much data that people can pick and choose what they hang an argument on.

normanoffside

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Germany’s Covpass will shortly provide link to proof of negative antigen test. So yes fully vaccinated people will not be restricted as before. Unvaccinated people will be restricted in so far as they may, when necessary during a hypothetical future spike, still need to provide evidence of a negative antigen test.

Apples and oranges really - there will be inconvenience being unvaccinated with more restrictions than fully vaccinated persons, however there will be options to obtain same status as fully vaccinated without being vaccinated. Unlike what’s being proposed here, where you are either vaccinated or... tough luck.

Germany is clearly wrong on this, we must trust in NPHET.

brickster69

is_that_so wrote: »

Not questioning this observation but it is one of the problems of this where there is so much data that people can pick and choose what they hang an argument on.

There is no argument it is black and white and something that is seriously overlooked IMO.

Ballynally

normanoffside wrote: »

What mess?
England and Scotland have indoor dining opened a long time and are moving to remove the final few restrictions in the coming weeks.

It ALL comes down to perspective and numbers can and will be used to either reject or support any proposition.
You see, it is not the science, the data per se, it is the way it is perceived and the value put upon it.
Good propaganda gives you the idea that a certain way of looking at things is the only reasonable one.
If that is pushed by state agents, including state broadcasters like RTE, who care about the Truth ( capital T) as they claim in the adverts, most people who are scared already will need just a little push to accept it.
Different countries have different perspectives.
Just look at the difference between the BBC (and other EU state broadcasters) and RTE.
Both broadly in line w government perspectives..

_Kaiser_

Leo trying to rein Tony in again it seems...

TÁNAISTE Leo Varadkar has insisted there is “no reason to believe” a fourth lockdown will be imposed on the country despite the looming threat of the Delta variant of the coronavirus.
Mr Varadkar said yesterday that there will be a fourth wave of the pandemic over the coming summer months and admitted that at this point the Government do not know how long it will last or how bad it will be.

However, he insisted the country would “weather through” another spike in new cases by ramping up vaccinations, keeping the current restrictions in place and introducing vaccine passes for indoor dining.

“There is no reason to believe that we will be forced to go into a fourth lockdown because of the variant,” Mr Varadkar told the Irish Independent.

Somehow however, I don't think it'll be up to Leo and Micheal though. NPHET pushing fear and hysteria, and their one-note lockdown "strategy" means that they'll get their way in the end - again!

I've actually started to think that this nonsense could well go on until the 2 lads swap jobs next year, and Leo does what will look good for Leo - which in this case coincides with what most of the public want.. A return to actual normality.

is_that_so

brickster69 wrote: »

There is no argument it is black and white and something that is seriously overlooked IMO.

There is a selection bias at work in a lot of the observations and plenty of obsession with the data alone. It's also a problem in the modelling as they exclude a lot of factors, especially variables to evaluate the human response to measures.