TD Ciaran Cannon hit by SUV, suffers serious injury

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380420#Comment_119380420

Should a cyclist slow approaching junction while overtaking on left

Yes or no is fine.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380448#Comment_119380448

If they are walking no. If they are cycling at walking pace no. If they are cycling at a reasonable speed no.

Maybe you'd answer the question you've been avoiding. What speed would a cyclist avoid this accident.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380432#Comment_119380432

I'm not shutting anyone down. You might withdraw that.

The risk is identical so in Moycullen as Canal in Dublin?

You would advise a family member to cycle exactly like Cannon? No need to alter speed?

Weepsie

yes you did. You' said it was the twctic of someone who doesn't want to debate and then continued with your whataboutery which was answered despite it not deserving a response.

If my family member could see that a car was going to stop where it shouldn't have stopped to let an SUV that was turning when it shouldn't be then yes.

But this was freely moving traffic Witt space ahead that cannon could see for the car ahead to proceed. There was zero reason for it to stop. He read the road ahead.

The family member thislng is a nonsense bad faith argument like those who say think of the children so they don't have to change their own **** behaviour and is just an excuse for criminal driving here

Flinty997

If you think drivers are any more aware or give cyclists any more consideration on Dublin canals than Galway you are badly mistaken. In Dublin it's pretty much Zero.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380511#Comment_119380511

I'm debating good roadcraft.

I've shut nobody down. Link please or withdraw

It's not a bad faith argument. What advice would you give a newbie overtaking

Flinty997

For a newbie I would say most of these routes are unsuitable for a newbie.

Because the lack of enforcement for anti cyclist driving means it's rampant.

It's especially bad for new cyclists. Which is why most of cycling initiative's and infrastructure is aimed at encouraging new cyclists and out of cars.

But this incident sends all the wrong signals. Driver should at least be cautioned. But to do nothing.

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380520#Comment_119380520

You still can't answer with what speed cannon should have approached the the junction. Because the fact of the matter is that even if he dismounted and walked his bike across the junction, he would still have been at risk of being hit by the SUV because the driver could not be bothered to verify the lane was clear. He was not traveling with excessive speed. The logical conclusion to your argument for a cyclist to stop at every junction and entrance regardless of right of way. Hardly practical. We wouldn't need to worry about giving 'newbies' advice in those circumstances as there wouldn't be any.

Flinty997

I would have started with maybe he could have cycled slower. But then I think we'll he's not really going fast though. So how slow does he have to cycle to avoid this. The conclusion is there is no way anyone in the path of that driver can avoid it.

So then you think could he have predicted it. But the driver gave no warning. So do you just assume this at every junction. So you slow to walking pace, or stop at every junction just in case? How slow is slow enough.

On the canal it's very much watch everything like a hawk.

For a newbie I suggest a quieter route until they have experience. If they said their only route was heavy traffic or fast traffic I just sat forget it. Too much aggressive driving out there unless you know what you are doing.

Flinty997

There is no speed the cyclist can slow to and cross this junction and be sure that this driver won't hit them.

Predictions and anticipation only work if you can predict by seeing that driver in advance. There is no way of doing this if they turn last minute with no warning.

So the only option is to assume there driver like this at every junction, and stop at every one. Which is basically stop cycling.

CramCycle

He was doing well under 30kmph, in fact I'd guess about 20, if even. The car rolled up and turned, and accelerated. It did not stop. He had about a second to react, while travelling at quite a low speed. I'd agree with the speed thing if he cycled like me and was tipping 50+ on a down hill but he wasn't. If the car had stopped for even a second it would have given the driver time to look and assess. It would have also given Ciaran a chance to estimate he might turn. Not saying he should have to but if thats what some people think is necessary, in my opinion, he wasn't given any clue it was coming until a point where the drivers behaviour meant there was no reasonable way to avoid him.

If he had his head down, was at 40kmph, never looked up I could understand the view that he could have done something different but he wasn't. Every suggestion of what he should have done differently, he appears to be actually doing

Flinty997

Looks about 15kph to me if even.

But this all infers there is a speed that will avoid this crash. I can't see there is.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380743#Comment_119380743

Kind of what I was implying. If the driver had stopped, and if the driver had looked, and if they had made the maneuver with caution. Then if Ciaran had his head down and was doing an ITT at the time, then yes, Ciaran would be too blame.

Literally none of this, as far as I can see did. The driver did not stop, they did not look, and they didn't complete the turn with caution. Ciaran had his head up, was travelling at a low speed, and was not to blame, even if you go down the victim blaming route, I don't see what he could have done.

Sadly this is only in the news as he is a TD, this is how it's always dealt with.

Former Former Former

It's not really about the speed of the cyclist, it's about awareness. That was the issue.

Regardless of blame, going on Twitter crying that the driver isn't getting a criminal record, questioning the competence of the Gardai and undermining the DPP is absolutely unacceptable for a TD.

So again, no sympathy. Like it or not, behaviour like this is the absolute worst thing for advancing the cause of cycling.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381423#Comment_119381423

You can't be "aware" of someone making unpredictable sudden change in direction. There is no warning.

If you claim it's predicable at every junction, or driveway, then how do you counter it, and you've just said it's not about speed.

magicbastarder

i wonder does ciaran cannon know about this thread...

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381423#Comment_119381423

Demanding that drivers are made accountable for their actions and made to share limited road space in a safe and equitable manner is most definitely to the advancement of cycling. You are taking out if your hat.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381453#Comment_119381453

I reckon that @Former Former Former is actually Ciarán Cannon!

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381446#Comment_119381446

Honestly, it's not that hard.

The car ahead of you stops at a junction, despite having the right of way to proceed straight through

Do you

a) ignore this and keep going at the same speed, because you too have the right of way, or

b) take a cautious approach, slow down too and scan ahead for any traffic that might be coming your way.

Ciaran went for option A. Fair enough, can't say I would have done likewise.

If Cannon thought a driver turning right when the oncoming traffic stopped to let it do exactly that was "unpredictable ", then he should be neither cycling, driving nor holding public office.

Seth Brundle

Cannon was pretty much level with the car when it stopped. He didn't have time to see the turning vehie and react despite your ongoing blame.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381496#Comment_119381496

Cars stop at every junction in traffic and entrances a lot of the time.

Despite saying it's not about the cyclists speed in your last post, you've made this solely about the cyclists speed.

Now that's predictable.

Weepsie

A newbie now, not a family member? Canon is not a newbie. He saw the space ahead and traffic was moving and would reasonably assuming that the traffic would proceed and continue making progress as it's supposed to.

What you want is more witch craft than road craft as it's trying to predict the future. The poor road craft os on behalf of the driver of the suv poor positioning, and forcing a situation they ought not to.

You said the accusation of "victim blaming" is for someone who doesn't want debate and didn't actually address the point. Then you badger leoe saying anwer my question, when it's been answered, even though it's whataboutery.

And seeing as you want to try to be emotive and play they "what would you tell your family to do". What if your family member was in the situation and did the exact same. Would be pontificating about road craft? Would you be hoping it taught them a lesson? I highly doubt it. But this is whataboutery too and doesn't deserve a response

Again the situation as happened. Traffic is moving. Slowly, but it is moving. There space for the car if not 2 cars to proceed and not block up a junction (because that's for assholes as you said). Cannon is inside when traffic is still moving. He's not going particularly fast either. Car stops just as he's coming up it's inside and fails to progress as you would reasonably expect it too. In the same situation I don't see how many could do much differently.

As for the DPP, they have experience of stronger cases than this and meeting judges and juries who time and time again are sympathetic to car drivers, regardless of the fact that they may have been fully at fault.

If you want to main or kill someone in Ireland. Do it with your car. You might be unlucky to get a suspended sentence.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381423#Comment_119381423

Again, he saw the traffic moving, and space ahead for it to proceed. There's very little time between the car stopping and him being hit.

The driver didn't have any awareness whatsoever. If they did, they wouldn't have bullied their way into the turn

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381496#Comment_119381496

Your watching a different video to everyone else. Cannon was going slowly. The car stopped as he was just beside it, the car moved as he was half way past, so at a slow speed he had a second, maybe 2 metres to avoid a collision with an obstacle in a space that he could see to be clear milliseconds before.

Please address the fact that he is doing what you recommend but can't seem to accept he is already doing.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381561#Comment_119381561

You are confusing me with another poster I think. I didn't say any of those things

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119381595#Comment_119381595

Yeah I don't know how you were quoted there as I had quoted large bottle....

Flinty997

Boards seems a bit glitchy lately and today especially. Thought it was just me.

eeeee

This is just going round in circles.

Thread closed