TD Ciaran Cannon hit by SUV, suffers serious injury

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376930#Comment_119376930

I agree, the driver went too fast. The driver is at fault.

But Cannon is having a go at the driver, the Gardai and the DPP.

If you're calling out everyone and anyone, you'd better be sure you did all you could to avoid it. And he didn't.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379265#Comment_119379265

Explain how he could have avoided it other than cycling at walking pace. Basically not cycling.

That's the problem with this, the "but what about the cyclist" it's basically put the cyclist off the road to avoid bad driving.

If the cyclist was going flat out through pedestrians you'd have a point. Or maybe weaving through traffic. But he's just cycling normally down the inside.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379517#Comment_119379517

I've explained it multiple times. He wasn't aware of the traffic around him. He wasn't.

For an elected representative to be publicly criticising the Gardai and DPP is bad enough, especially knowing they can't come back at him. It's totally out of order and once he starts that he invites a higher level of scrutiny on himself.

Flinty997

How was he not aware?

There is no time to react to a car that blind sides you at speed.

A pedestrian couldn't have got out of the way of that car.

If you are suggesting you should assume every car will just randomly launch at speed. across at every entrance and driveway. Then you have to stop at each one. All traffic cyclists pedestrians, joggers, cars should stop at every potential crossing point.

That's what you're suggesting.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379690#Comment_119379690

No, not suggesting anything. I couldn't be clearer in what I'm saying.

Let's look at his original tweet after the accident.

He said the SUV "came out of nowhere, saw a gap, went for it".

That absolutely does not tally with what we see in the video. The SUV was there all along and the gap arose because the car on Cannon's side stopped to let it turn. The driver didn't "go for it", he/she turned at a normal speed.

So, we have it from the man himself that he didn't observe the traffic situation properly.

Like I've said maybe five times already, the accident wasn't his fault.

But Cannon isn't talking about whose fault it is. He wants the driver to get a conviction, potentially jail, and is publicly calling out the Gardai and DPP for not making that happen. That puts a very different spin on things. And an elected representative should not be carrying on like that.

And frankly I've no sympathy for him for that.

Weepsie

That car didn't turn at normal speed though.

Car crossed the line when it shouldn't have. Initiated the turn before traffic stopped and then accelerated before ensuring the way was clear.

There's a plethora of driving offences

Flinty997

The clip I saw. what he said is exactly what happened.

The issue is do you want to prevent cyclists from cycling normally or do you want to do nothing about bad driving, (dangerous driving).

I've little interest in politics. But if you wanted to focus on attitudes to encourage cycling he's doing the right thing. I've no interest in the politics of it. I don't think you can see past that.

You also can't see past drivers moderating their bad habits to facilitate cyclists. You want it the other way around. Thats 70s thinking. That day is gone.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379897#Comment_119379897

There's a plethora of driving offences

...but it is still Cannon's fault!

Large bottle small glass

https://maps.app.goo.gl/aiCj9uYTe4qGAgCu9

That's the location, it's a junction not an entrance. Cannon was heading in direction of silver A4

To avoid an honest discussion, posters have

* Avoided simple questions

* Played the victim card, even introducing rape into topic

There is no one arguing driving wasn't terrible; but as cyclists we will encounter terrible driving all the time and as vulnerable road users to reduce our risk should be aware of those risks.

Or should we wrap ourselves in victimhood and learn nothing from near misses/accidents?

Cannon is local, knows there's a junction there and he is in a narrow channel overtaking in a bike scare environment and doesn't alter his speed, in spite of gap in traffic, brake lights and a stopped car beside him. Are people saying that is good road craft, advisable for other cyclists reading this?

In relation to speed, the maximum speed in NSW for motorbikes filtering is 30km/h; in a challenging environment approaching a busy junction in heavy traffic a sensible speed for a bike is a lot less than that.

For the slow learners the driving here was ****

Flinty997

Says honest discussion then brings motorbikes and speeds that most cyclists will never reach into it. Certain not the speed in this video.

You're still arguing that cyclists need to stop cycling at every junction to facilitate bad driving.

What should the cyclist do. Slow to walking pace at every junction. Should drivers do the same.

Flinty997

But but the cyclist....

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379966#Comment_119379966

Worse still, he's bad person for reporting it and bringing attention to the abysmal enforcement of dangerous driver behaviours and habits that are especially problematic for cyclists and other road users.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379966#Comment_119379966

Point to where someone says that.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380121#Comment_119380121

That's the implication. If the cyclist changed their behaviour they can avoid being blindsided by a sucker punch.

I'm all for reading the road, and anticipation for cyclists. Defensive cycling etc. But last second erratic actions are impossible to counter. It's why left hooks and dooring in traffic is an issue.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380067#Comment_119380067

Motorbikes is urban environment have a lot of similarities to bicycles; two wheels, similar view, similar visibility of them, similar speeds, similar filtering allowed?

All correct yes or where specifically do you disagree?

Note the 30km/h maximum in my previous post, a speed regularly exceeded bu bicycles. So less of the strawman please.

I never said stop so less strawmaning there to

1.Be aware of junction

2. Beware of narrow channel

3. Beware of your vulnerability

4. Beware of stopped slowing traffic

5. Beware of your lack of visibility 1m from line of cars.

6. Beware that you are in Moycullen where bicycles overtaking on left is very rare

Are you saying a bicycle can do whatever speed they want at that location? Should they be extra mindful at junctions?

Flinty997

The cyclist on this incident is not exceeding 30kph is a complete misrepresenting the situation.

Average speed in London for Stava is 25 and that's going to be almost entirely sports cyclists trying to go fast.

So no the speeds of motorbikes and cyclists are not compatible. That's ridiculous.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380235#Comment_119380235

How fast motorbikes can go is utterly irrelevant.

30km/h is the maximum speed allowed for motorbikes filtering in NSW. Overtaking on the left is very similar in terms of risk at junction.

With that in mind, and considering the risk factors here as numbered above, a speed a lot less than 30km/h would be appropriate for a motorbike/bicycle/scooter/vulnerable road user of choice.

Now answer question,

"Are you saying a bicycle can do whatever speed they want at that location? Should they be extra mindful at junctions?"

Would you recommend to be unaware of junction, not altering speed as good roadcraft?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380121#Comment_119380121

The very fact that you and others are trying to make the point that Cannon should have done something differently to avoid a driver's poor driving despite Cannon cycling completely in accordance with the law and the driver turning without a clear view. You are blaming Cannon with your "...but..." crap.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380208#Comment_119380208

All this says is you have no experience of cycling and think you can fill in the gaping holes in your knowledge by substitution with very suspect driving habits.

Well you can't.

As for driving oblivious to other road users like those on your left, because that's your habit. Kinda says it all.

The point of this incident is too raise awareness. To argue against that by saying don't drive with any awareness because lazy driving has become habitual. Ironic or what.

Weepsie

Canon isn't going particularly fast. Only the car accelerates .

The more it's watched, the car doesn't actually stop. It starts it's turn and keeps going as it's forced the other car to stop by taking over it's lane.

It's just so utterly **** driving that all the road craft in the world wouldn't make a difference

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380280#Comment_119380280

I cycle every day.

To shops, creche, pub, bank etc etc.

I've done 1200km down to 100km events. 24hr events. So fcuking what

Now answer my questions about road craft.

Less strawmaning if you can.

Flinty997

What speed should cyclists cross junctions at. They are already traveling slower than what cars consider too slow.

The reason a cyclist can't get out of the way of car is the car is accelerating and moving much faster than anyone can react to. It's why you're meant to drive slowly and not cut across people with no warning.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380285#Comment_119380285

You might answer the question I asked you 3 times.

It's sh1t driving for the 30th time.

I've numbered all the things an overtaking cyclist should be mindful of, considering that should a cyclist overtaking in traffic in Moycullen passing a junction do anything or just continue at whatever speed they like through junction?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380285#Comment_119380285

Exactly. If the driver had stopped, slowly nudged out then people could react to it. Have some time to see it in advance.

It's the lack of any advance notice and high speed that prevents any avoidance by other parties.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380321#Comment_119380321

It's the primary risk to Cannon passing junction, should he not need to alter his speed at all?

Good road craft for 3rd time?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380258#Comment_119380258

Agrees motorbikes are irrelevant then uses motorbike speed as a reference. Open mouth change foot.

Was the cyclist going dangerously fast. No. End of.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380377#Comment_119380377

Motorbikes don't share similarities with bicycles that make both vulnerable in urban traffic? Seriously?

Would you discount advice on how to descend of a mountain if it came from a motorcyclist?

Now answer question on roadcraft 4th time of asking.

Should a cyclist altered theirs awareness at junctions when overtaking on left or is ok just to go through?

What advice you would give a newbie cyclist doing same manouvre?

The driving here is very bad so we can park that up. Good lad.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380313#Comment_119380313

If you cycle that much all it proves is you've learnt nothing from it because your road craft described by you in this thread is appalling.

I've answered your question repeatedly. The only way to avoid being blindsided is to go at walking speed or stop. Even stopped you will not get out of the way of a car driving blind at you at speed with no warning.

Basically you have not be in the space the car is going into. You can't use the road (cross the junction) and not be in that space. Crossing the junction requires you to be in that space.

Flinty997

The only way to avoid this driver is to stop before crossing the junction. Then walk across.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119380334#Comment_119380334

I answered it and it's whataboutery anyway yet you keep trying to shut down people who are well within their rights to state that it's not much better than victim blaming.

Its not road craft to see that the road ahead is clear for the moving traffic to keep moving into but has stopped to let a car that has no right to be turning in. That's not road craft if it was then every single junction should be met with a stop basically. The car which is at best a bike length or 2 ahead makes a stop, or is perhaps forced to stop by the SUV. Cannon is even if he's jamming on the breaks reading the situation is at risk.

You've tried saying it's different to somewhere urban where the turning car shouldn't expect a bike as often. That's bollox. You should always be expecting something.

I'd flip it, and think in an urban environment there's more likely to be someone making the turn and more often. In a less busy place there is likely to be less traffic making that turn at that junction so he's right to just carry on. That's in essence what your saying, as it's 2 sides of the same coin