US and Nato withdrawal from Afghanistan...- threadbanned users in OP

Gatling

Taliban forces are now within 6km of Kabul ,the British and American are rushing there forces into evacuate diplomatic staff and other civilians ,

Kabul could fall within the next day or two ,seen footage from social media of thousands of siezed weapons and several helicopters flying in support of the Taliban,

The Taliban have an airforce who would have thought that !

Gary Scrod

What percentage of the Afghan population support the Taliban?

The US was right to invade given that the Taliban wouldn't give up the Al Qaeda leadership, but they are also right to leave IF the wishes of the majority of the Afghan people is to live in the stone age, as long as they don't interfere with the rest of the world.

Jimbob1977

The speed of collapse by the Afghan army is remarkable.

It's like a Taliban blitzkrieg.

Even the South Vietnamese Army were more resilient.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755834#Comment_117755834

I doubt anyone expected this , it's like there is no military presence in Afghanistan at all at this moment ,the Taliban are litterally just walking into towns and cities near unoposed ,at this rate Russia Iran and Pakistan must be thinking this can't be good for us

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755828#Comment_117755828

But its not the wishes of the majority ( or the minority either) to be ruled by the Taliban again, even after 20 years the memories of the Taliban "RULE" are still fresh in everyone over 25 years of age..and for those who have forgotten...soon they will remember, as those citizens of places the Taliban have retaken are already finding out.. They have had 20 years living in a world which is the opposite of the world they lived in when under the Taliban before.

If the majority don't want to be ruled by the taliban again, them why is nobody putting up much of a fight?

The taliban are walking it.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755834#Comment_117755834

The difference is I think, is that the US money pumped into the South Vietnamese might have filtered down to the ordinary Vietnamese soldier, and given them the support they needed, when they needed it. Much more money and support were given to the Afghanistan Govt, but unfortunately, corruption meant that very little filtered doen to the soldiers..even highly trained commando units were beaten because they ran out of ammunition.Its poetic justice in a way...the very ones who were the most corrupt, now could find their very lives in danger, because the Taliban will take over.. and this will happen because the ill equipped army are unable to protect them.

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755898#Comment_117755898

Why is no one trying to stop them? Afghan military forces? The Afghan people?

Afghan population is 38 million. Afghan military is 180,000. Taliban fighter headcount is supposed to be 75,000.

I think the west has it's head in the sand here regarding what the Afghan people really want.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117753682#Comment_117753682

The main problem with this whole 20 year farce is that Bush and Co. abandoned Afghanistan because there was no money in it. Instead they chose to dust off an old Iraq invasion plan to carry out an oil war over there instead, purely based on the most flimsy of lies, and they left a skeleton crew of poor saps in Afghanistan who hadn't a bull's notion what the hell they were doing there in a war they couldn't have won if they'd stayed a thousand years.

All that America has done is to sink yet another country into the quagmire of an uncertain future with the possibility of blowback in the neighbouring regions and maybe onto itself. Because if the Taliban have anything at all in their arsenal, it's the fact that America invaded their country and left it in a bloody mess. That will be enough of a rallying cry for many young men to join forces with them.

People talk about Trump being a disaster, and he was, but the tenure of George Bush Jr. and his string pullers has left the world with deplorable disasters that have been felt years after he's left office and have the potential to be felt for years to come.

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755941#Comment_117755941

Maybe they should have given the Al Qaeda up when they had the chance 20 years ago.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755946#Comment_117755946

Maybe the US shouldn't have armed and funded the Mujahideen 40 years ago. 😉

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755950#Comment_117755950

Maybe the Soviet Union shouldn't have invaded.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755950#Comment_117755950

That's like saying russia shouldn't have invaded and forceabble occupied the country which brought us to where we are today ,

It didn't start with America .

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755966#Comment_117755966

Perhaps the Yanks should have minded their own business.

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755975#Comment_117755975

And let the Soviets increase (or maintain) their sphere of influence? Yeah, sounds like a good idea. Perhaps the Soviets should have minded their own business.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755932#Comment_117755932

Let me ask you a question Gary. Say you live in a village / area of 5000 people, barely scratching a living, poor to non-existant communications, extremely difficult to reach, and one fine day a convoy of heavily armed military turn up waving their black Flags, and proclaim that you are now free, and have been liberated from the invaders.....and invite you to join their ranks in their mission to overthrow the infidel unbelivers. To reinforce their demands, they publicly excute the local leaders....so they spread out to the surrounding villages / districts and repeat the process,,,and their prowess and methodology precedes them..so they get to the stage, that by the time they reach the next districts, the Govt leaders have already left, any defenders have thrown down their weapons, and are already waving black flags in welcome.

Now Gary, if you lived in one of these villages / districts, how would you react? And for the towns and bigger population centres, it was the same. Because the majority of these Afghan people you mention, were not military,just ordinary Afghans.

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755994#Comment_117755994

I would have gotten out my decades old Kalashnikov and taken as many out before they got me. The Taliban has 75,000 headcount in a population of 38 million. I'm not buying that they don't have the support of villagers and outside the cities.

We always hear how hard Afghanistan was to conquer. The graveyard of empires etc. Was that all bullshit? Have the people lost their will to fight, or are they not fighting because they don't see the Taliban as the enemy.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755985#Comment_117755985

Perhaps they should have. But America only made things worse. MUCH worse.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756001#Comment_117756001

Gary, I lived in Afghanistan ( for several years ), so maybe I understand the situation a little bit better than people who have not been there. They are survivors..anyone who has taken up arms against the Taliban, either Villagers of Soldiers, is now dead.The ones left, are survivors. They owe no allegience to their Government in Kabul, who have never done much to help them,so for them better to live, and see what the future will bring...but for sure, none of them want to live under the Taliban again. You think that the villagers were wholeheartedly supporting the Taliban ( they werent , the opposite in fact) but if they were, in the same way as the whole Country was united against the Russians, how did the US manage to last the 20 years they were there? They lasted because despite internal tribal difference's, they knew well they were better off under the Americans...and so they were.

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756050#Comment_117756050

"An enormous number of Afghans died during the Soviet invasion (1978 – 1989); reasonable estimates place this at a minimum of 500,000."

"Between 562,000 and 2,000,000 Afghans were killed and millions more fled the country as refugees..."

"In the brutal nine-year conflict, an estimated one million civilians were killed, as well as 90,000 Mujahideen fighters, 18,000 Afghan troops, and 14,500 Soviet soldiers. "

Sounds like it was paradise before the US got involved. 🙄

You are letting your hatred of the US cloud your judgment.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756070#Comment_117756070

It was still none of their business and their intervention just made things a LOT worse.

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756073#Comment_117756073

Bullshit. Your anti US agenda is laughable and so childish. I suppose you think the US should have withdrawn from Europe after WW2 and let the Soviets invade the entire continent. FFS.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756082#Comment_117756082

And your excuses are ludicrous.

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756088#Comment_117756088

Explain how things are worse in Afghanistan now compared to the aftermath of the Soviet invasion and withdrawal and the 500,000 to 2,000,000 estimated civilian dead from the Soviet invasion.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1122273/

"The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 and the subsequent brutal military campaign resulted in one of the biggest humanitarian crises of modern history, with over five million refugees fleeing to Pakistan and Iran and another two million displaced internally."

"Before the recent conflict [in 2001], most of the five million Afghan refugees from the Soviet invasion were living in Pakistan and Iran, either in refugee camps or urban squatter settlements."

"Despite attempts at demining, there were still close to 10-15 million mines in Afghanistan in 1993."

"In a gruesome demonstration of specific targeting of children by the Soviets, many of the mines deployed were shaped as colourful toys or “butterflies.”"

Before the US 2001 liberation:

"Average life expectancy is 46 years, and mortality among children, who represent almost 42% of its 26 million population, is extremely high."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes#Afghanistan_(1979%E2%80%931989)

"In order to separate the mujahideen from the local populations and eliminate their support, the Soviet army killed and drove off civilians, and used scorched earth tactics to prevent their return. They used booby traps, mines, and chemical substances throughout the country."

"The Soviet army indiscriminately killed combatants and noncombatants to ensure submission by the local populations."

"Soviet soldiers as well as KhAD agents kidnapped young women from the city of Kabul and the areas of Darul Aman and Khair Khana, near the Soviet garrisons, to rape them."

"Deserters from the Soviet Army in 1984 also confirmed the atrocities by the Soviet troops on Afghan women and children, stating that Afghan women were being raped. The rape of Afghan women by Soviet troops was common and 11.8 percent of the Soviet war criminals in Afghanistan were convicted for the offence of rape."

I'm not sure the Afghan people would buy your pro-Soviet tripe either.

Tony EH

Your excuses wont make things any better.

The US chose to support a bunch of crazies who morphed into the group that launched two jets into the WTC and the Pentagon. They then chose to invade Afghanistan but later buggered off to invade ANOTHER country instead. Now they backing out and leaving the Taliban in charge.

Great work all round.

Gary Scrod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756157#Comment_117756157

What 'Excuses'?

The Soviets were responsible for up to 2 million civilian deaths, use of chemical weapons, millions of mines, systematic destruction of villages, 5 million refugees, war crimes, widespread rape, significantly life expectancy and sky high infant mortality.

But the big bad US are to blame for everything. Time to get your head out of the sand.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756157#Comment_117756157

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756001#Comment_117756001

But they didn't arm and support a group that morphed into ALQ ,the original mujahadeen , weren't religious extremists ,the extremist were foreign groups funded and supported by Saudis and other countries ,the Taliban were initially a student movement that originated in Pakistan , which then became militarised fighting and removing the various local warloards , with the exception of the northern alliance ,the mujahadeen already had weapons yes the American gave them stingers to shoot down russian aircraft ,but for the most part they are armed with Russian weapons , captured , bought ( from Russians forces ) and found once the Russians legged left ,

We will see plenty of m16s over the next while which won't last long because they need proper maintenance to keep operating unlike the Ak,and a few observation drones again no good if you cant operate them and maintain them ,

Mistakes were made like trusting Pakistan as an ally when they were funding and supplying the Taliban , while dragging their feet when NATO supplies had to come through Pakistani ports ,the same Pakistan who seem to have zero control on Taliban forces passing into Afghanistan and back to Pakistan knowing they were attacking us and afgan forces ,

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755865#Comment_117755865

Oh I think most people did.

I don't get your point about Russian and Iran or Pakistan.

Tony EH

Al Qaeda was born out of the Mujahadeen and there were even warnings at the time about the folly of supporting such a group. In any case, had the US never gave a cent to them, the Russians would have eventually pulled out. They were in a completely unwinnable war that was only a drag on them especially in the case of international relations. Even in the Andropov tenure they were looking for a way out, albeit one that would save face. By the time Gorbachev came along, it was a foregone conclusion. It was farcical that they even went in in the first place.

But even so, all that American intervention did was make things worse, which they found out on 9/11. Not only that, they then chose to make things even more terrible by invading another country that had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 and take their eye off the ball in Afghanistan, which in Iraq led to the rise of ISIS.

It's been a disaster all round.

You know, you can alleviate things, or exacerbate things...or you could do nothing. Something the best thing is Primum non nocere.

Tyrone212

The Taliban now control all major Afghan cities except Kabul, as the group takes Jalalabad city without resistance.

The afghan army are a joke. Almost triple the size of the taliban, have air power vs none and the entire nation bar kabul capitulates in no time.

Will they even put up a fight for kabul at this stage?

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756001#Comment_117756001

That would make a great climatic movie scene but it's not reality. In the face of great odds all most people want to hunker down and survive for themselves and their families, not do a suicidal Rambo with a weapon they likely dont have to hand.

The Afghan army are a Farce of a Force.

Agis_IV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755828#Comment_117755828

The Taliban offered to hand Bin Laden over before and during Operation Enduring Freedom?

orecir

The optics of this a year into presidents Bidens first year as president is really bad.

He will be a lame duck now with the American public.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755828#Comment_117755828

Was bin laden or rest of al qaeda leadership ever even in afganiatan.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756493#Comment_117756493

Yeah the optics are terrible and the 'not one more year' line his administration is spinning doesn't seem to be cutting it on any of the news networks, irrespective of their traditional political leanings.

I think most US people understand and know that a withdrawal had to happen, but the manner in which it has happened has been haphazard and ill thought out. The likes of the below will come back to haunt Biden. He is likely praying that no US citizen is harmed during the disorderly withdrawl. Lets not forget how Benghazi essentially destroyed Hilary Clinton's career in public office.

https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1426808439297167362

https://twitter.com/emilykschrader/status/1426811465642741763

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756493#Comment_117756493

Sending their troops out to fight and possibly die in a never ending quagmire halfway around the world. What American doesnt want that?

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756509#Comment_117756509

A lot of Americans died during the ill thought out original occupation. A lot of taxpayers dollars were spent.

I'm sure every American citizen wanted a withdrawal but not one that rendered the last 20 years a complete waste of life and money. Which is what it looks like.

Now it may have been a waste regardless of the type of withdrawal but I think regardless of that, Biden and the current administration have shown that they were unaware of the situation.

Which doesn't reflect well on them.

Hande hoche!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756509#Comment_117756509

The ending of one of the "forever wars" is a popular decision. Having the entire country virtually collapse to the opposition two weeks before your troops were due out is a less desirable outcome. Having to dangle the possibility of aid or international recognition isn't exactly a powerful indication of a super power's clout.

jackboy

This will go down as a defeat for the US in the war against the Taliban. That will be Bidens legacy now. No matter the right and wrongs of withdrawing, the manner of the withdrawal is embarrassing. Can’t put that all down to Biden though, there are deep problems.

No longer the "Policeman of the World in any respect". (Not behind a pay wall, I could read it free as one of three non subscriber articles.)

The Washington Post: Afghanistan's collapse leaves allies questioning U.S. resolve on other fronts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/afghanistan-chaos-blame-us/2021/08/14/0d4e5ab2-fd3e-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html

omerin

For a man who was supposedly a foreign affairs expert, Biden isn't learning from past mistakes. This is pretty much up there with actions his predecessor took but on a much larger scale. He is either getting poor advice or questions need to be asked of his competance, my bet is on the latter.

If he turns up in Ireland, I can only hope he is given a hostile reception

Richard Hillman

To be fair to the Yanks. Their original invasion was fully justified. A lot of people over the years (and especially this weekend) have been trying to whitewash 9/11, like they were not fully justified to go after the regime protecting Bin Laden.

They gave the Afghans 20 years to get their **** together and they didn't seem to want it. Society effectively wanted the Taliban back. If the Afghans didn't want the Taliban back they wouldn't have colluded with them for 2 decades and they most certainly would be putting up a fight to protect their towns and cities. But they cheer them in on their Toyota's, ready for the good times to come back.

As said in the thread, the Graveyard of Empires. The Soviet Union fell not too long after Afghanistan. The U.S is now a divisive mess, with China now the Big Boy in the Playground. I wonder will China ever have a pop. That would be interesting to see.

Hande hoche!

Some spectacular intelligence failures. Projected takeover from 18 months to 6 months, then 3 months. Suggestions of 4 weeks, now it seems to be a matter of days.

Kermit.de.frog

The president can only be as good as the advice he gets ultimately. If the joint chiefs told him a and b would happen how can he contradict?

At the end of the day the US can stay if it likes and smash the Taliban back but to what end?

Another 20 years trying to win hearts and minds?

Afghanistan has to evolve itself naturally. It is going back to the dark ages for now but the only hope is they can make progress and social change over time.

Flinty997

If they stayed he would be wrong. If he leaves he be wrong. No wining that.

Its costing the US a fortune and wearing out their military. Smart move was to get out of a unwinnable war.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117755865#Comment_117755865

Yes. like dominoes,,,,if ever there was a case of "Be carefull of what you wish for, in case you get it " this is it !!! Now we will see how Iran Pakistan and Russia control a heavily armed and agressive neighbour.... I know its case of "What If" the Pashtuns on the Pakistan side decide to join in the success ( ?? ) of the Taliban, and decise to re-align the borders? On the Tajik side, Putin has sent military support to boost border defences,

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756827#Comment_117756827

China will have a pop. They are asset stripping anywhere they go to feed their machine and expansion.

They will just exploit the place, build a railway to rip minerals out of it. In fairness its what empires did in the past.

Fiery mutant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756827#Comment_117756827

Good post. No matter what people think of the US and it's decision to leave, the Afghan people had 20 years, billions of Dollars in aid, expert training and help from all over the world, in order for it to be able stand on its own and prosper. Still they chose corruption and being backward. This failure is their own making, nobody else's.

Fiery mutant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117756834#Comment_117756834

To be fair, I think we all saw it sliding back into chaos, just not so fast.