Interesting articles

Larbre34

Translation: 'The Scorpion programme is under consideration, alongside other systems, for the Irish Defence Forces civilian/military armour replacement analysis.'

The desktop exercise to consider options to fulfil the LoA recs, ie larger fleet, L4 armour and greater mobile firepower is only coming to a conclusion. There is still a whole procurement exercise to be gone through. The fella from KNDS is always going to try to make the company sound good in front of a French parliamentary committee, after all, they invested billions in taxpayers money in a programme that was supposed to recoup input costs by being exportable.

I wouldn't be polishing up the French Horns just yet. So to speak.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123165719#Comment_123165719

I think its more than that. We know that there's Government to Government talks going on, we know that the 145 buy happened much quicker than we would have seen historically, and that the MOWAG replacement is underway to the point of it hitting Irish media recently. While of course the French company is going to talk up its position, seems odd to name check us if was just a desktop exercise, which I presume a French company would be fairly able to pick up on.

jonnybigwallet

Seems odd to have a mixed fleet of APC'S. It's not as if the scorpion series packs a lot of firepower.…

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123166543#Comment_123166543

Allegedly it is going to be a major order but we will see in a few months. It will be interesting to see if there will be any offsets such as a maintance depot set up here by the manafacture.

Also the size of the order will give an indication of the new army design that is been worked on.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123166543#Comment_123166543

A few choppers is one thing.

A half billion Euro+ decade long contract for 100 vehicles that in any way circumvents the minimum public procurement obligations, even for defence, will not be taken lying down by General Dynamics or BAe Systems or whoever else may feel they haven't had a fair shake to offer a product.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123167269#Comment_123167269

Other EU nations have been doing the same if not larger since the Russian invasion, eg most of the Eastern nations, Poland clearly being the largest. Why not us? And frankly pretty much every defence contractor has full books and likely to get larger.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123167149#Comment_123167149

Suppose any offsets will depend on the size of the order, and whether it’s cost effective to set up maintenance here rather than just shipping them to France. It will be interesting wherever the replacement order goes to see numbers and versions alright.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123166742#Comment_123166742

They do, just differently.

The old French AMX-10 had a 105mm line-of-sight tank gun, which is fine and all, but that greatly limited its ability to fight in forestry and bocage landscape.

The Jaguar vehicle, the main offensive one of the Scorpion trio, only has a 40mm gun , but its no longer than the chassis, so it's versatile, and thats mated with the advanced fire control turret and the Akeron missile, which gives the vehicle an anti-armour strike capability up to 5km away and out of the line-of-sight.

As well as that, mechanised units are changing over to integrating the Caesar 155mm Howitzer for assault and counter-fire, so that frees up the IFVs to be more about the infantry than the fighting. I'd be surprised if we didn't see at least a half-dozen mounted Howitzers procured for the DF before the end of the decade.

sparky42

Ah, I can just imagine the complaints if we did, though to be honest I can see mounted 120mm long before 155mm pieces.

sparky42

Oh joy, Harris is going to the Munich conference, please god don't let him come up with a line of BS like Varadkar did last time.

Larbre34

Meanwhile.....if it isn't the consequences of our actions.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41574028.html

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169290#Comment_123169290

Well, more inactions than actions, on the other hand as absolutely low as it is using the gdp figures is bull.

Larbre34

The UK Chief of the Defence Staff, Admiral Sir Tony Radakin was in Dublin yesterday for a meeting with the DF General Staff at McKee.

Oh to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123171231#Comment_123171231

Moreover I think he flew from Brussels to us and then back to the U.K. Given the “discussions” in Brussels at the moment and Vance being Vance, interesting could be putting it mildly.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123171279#Comment_123171279

id say the admiral said to clancy are you as fuc@ked as we are?

https://thedefensepost.com/2024/12/26/soldiers-leave-british-military

Larbre34

To which Clancy could have well replied, 'I don't know about you Tony, but I'm getting a 4th star and an oak panelled office in Brussels lad!'

banie01

Trump husted Modi today and the post meeting press is very interesting and IMHo, a direct and very public slap in the face to Turkey.

Turkey was kicked from the F35A programme in 2019 by a Trump led US, for its purchase of S400 air defence system.

Turkey has since tried multiple times to rejoin and made multiple offers to quarantine S400. US has refused every single offer.

The largest operator of S400 outside of Russia, is India. The Indian Air force is currently in crisis, seriously under strength and in desperate need of modern fighters to counter China and Pakistan's induction of J20 and J35/FC31.

Their MRCA tender is currently the biggest fighter sales opportunity in the world. The need of the US to counter China in its new Pacific 1st strategy is pressing.

But, to throw F35s on the table whilst still freezing out and actual NATO ally is telling in the extreme.

Trump's foreign policy is schizophrenic and disjointed. This is great for Lockheed, Ratheon & co but? It is a definitive insult to Turkey and by extension those nations that had followed the US proscriptions on equipment to purchase F35s.

Once again, the French and their efforts to ensure "Strategic Autonomy" should be looming large in European defence procurement and planning.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-announces-plan-equip-india-f-35-stealth-fighters-2030961

sparky42

in reality given what’s being pipit forward by Trump and Co, as much as possible EU nations should be buying European hardware.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123172553#Comment_123172553

Yep, buy European and build both production capacity and stockpiles. The EU notion of a single foreign policy is soon to meet the reality of being reliant far too much on US imprimatur.

Markcheese

So if the jaguar / Scorpion thing is a moag replacement plan , what are the possibilities of holding onto the moags, how suitable are they to put into long term storage ?

They're not valueless, especially in the current climate, but for how much they're worth secondhand - would they be worth more to Ireland as a reserve, in case of unforeseen emergency.. I'm assuming you could put up a very big shed in the cyrragh , for relatively small money ,and pack them in like sardines ,

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173206#Comment_123173206

The cars have are only finshing there midlife upgrade and by the time new fleet is fully in place the mowags will be 30 plus years old

Markcheese

, I get that , but revamping old vehicles in an emergency is probably quicker and easier than ordering and waiting for you .. especially in an era of strife ,when everyone is looking for arms ect at the same time - there's a surprising number of leopards 1s, and other old armour still stored around Europe - just in case ,

For the cost of a huge shed - and possibly stocking up on critical parts and spares,

Markcheese

Basically a recommissioned ,cobbled together,30 year old APC is better in an imminent crisis - than a new armour program that should begin deliveries in 3 to 5 years ..

roadmaster

The Journal reporting the contract worth between €600 & €800 million. If that is true it is going to be some game changer for irish Armour.

https://www.thejournal.ie/new-apc-vehicles-maybe-coming-from-france-6623112-Feb2025/

jonnybigwallet

Good stuff! I wonder will our forces contribute towards the projected multi nation peacekeeping force in Ukraine?

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169290#Comment_123169290

While our Defence spending is pathetic, we score poorly in every study that uses % of GDP as a metric. It's a waste of time using it for Ireland.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173472#Comment_123173472

before we get carried away, let’s remember the price tag Luxembourg paid. Either they got hosed, or we are buying a much more limited support package if we are talking numbers.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173357#Comment_123173357

The stocking of spares/parts would be a necessity without question as demonstrated back in the days we had second hand tanks from the UK but no spares or munitions (I imagine there was some about of laughter from Whitehall at those sales), and in an perfect world they would be fine to be used by a full strength reserve.

Where we are and even with the most optimistic timeframe of LoA3 though?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123172553#Comment_123172553

Been saying this for years.

Thankfully, what we do buy in Ireland mostly is European already.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173472#Comment_123173472

All it means at the moment is that it's going to be very expensive. Not least because the demand on arms makers in Europe is simply colossal at the moment.

The Akeron anti-armour missile fitted to the Scorpion trio, and in-lieu of a large calibre gun on the Jaguar vehicle costs €120,000 per shot. Cheaper than a Javelin round, but not much.

For this acquisition to be a true game changer, and the DF Land Component of 2040 to be a 21st century standard fully integrated mechanised infantry Division, they have to go the whole hog and outfit it with the Howitzers, attack helicopters and anti-air systems, such as Mistral, to enable it to operate fully independently and with partner nations.

As to Sparky's question, where are we on the trajectory to LoA3, I would say there has been no problem with the cheque book, and this Country2Country approach seems to be speeding up efforts somewhat, but without serious mass recruitment and the expansion of capability to onboard all this stuff effectively, we're barely out of the driveway on the journey.

Will be very interesting to hear what message Martin and Harris return from Munich with, having borne first-hand witness to the decidedly concerning utterances of Messrs. Vance and Hegseth.