Tour de France stage 10: Albertville to Valence (190.7km)

Diarmuid

MPFGLB wrote: »

Jeez Michael Morkov could win in this field
Of course you can only beat who is in the race but Cav has got very lucky this year with the field of sprinters, either injured or not in the race

This BS is typical of this thread. The start list of this Tour was missing one top sprinter of the past 12 months and that's Bennett. The rest were there
https://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings/me/individual

He has beaten the best and in this form and confidence would have beaten Bennett too. Cav will be sending Bennett Christmas cards for years in thanks for his decision to give up his place in the Tour 2021.

G1032

happytramp wrote: »

Bennett, Ewan, Ackermann, Viviani, Groenewegen, Demare, Merlier, Nizzolo, Gaviria all missing.... that's four of the top five ranked sprinters of 2020 absent. The fifth is Sagan who was injured early on. Cav can only beat who's in front of him but it is a weak field.

Ah here. Come on.
Firstly it was Bennett or Cav and the 2 of them would never be at the Tour.

But Ackermann, Viviani, Nizzolo and Gaviria. You're not seriously putting them in the same league as Cavendish? If they were there as twice as good as they are they wouldn't beat him.
Demare had his chance before elimination and couldn't beat him.
Groenewegen might never be the same again. Only time will tell.
Sagan is long past his best.
That leaves Ewan. The only one who could challenge him (outside of his team mate Bennett).

De Bhál

Diarmuid wrote: »

This BS is typical of this thread. The start list of this Tour was missing one top sprinter of the past 12 months and that's Bennett. The rest were there
https://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings/me/individual

He has beaten the best and in this form and confidence would have beaten Bennett too. Cav will be sending Bennett Christmas cards for years in thanks for his decision to give up his place in the Tour 2021.

doubt he would've beaten Bennett today, it looked leaden enough. But really we have no idea.
Must be very tough on him sitting at home watching this unfold.

Raoul Duke

Don't know why WVA left it so long today. He was waiting for Cavendish to go first, which was at 150 meters. Way too late. In my opinion, the only chance he had was to go before Cavendish and try and hold on. Of course, he mightn't have the legs for that distance of a sprint.

happytramp

G1032 wrote: »

Ah here. Come on.
Firstly it was Bennett or Cav and the 2 of them would never be at the Tour.

But Ackermann, Viviani, Nizzolo and Gaviria. You're not seriously putting them in the same league as Cavendish? If they were there as twice as good as they are they wouldn't beat him.
Demare had his chance before elimination and couldn't beat him.
Groenewegen might never be the same again. Only time will tell.
Sagan is long past his best.
That leaves Ewan. The only one who could challenge him (outside of his team mate Bennett).

That's exactly where I'm putting him... This narrative that Cavendish after years without a victory has suddenly returned to his level of six years ago is nonsense. Yes he's currently the best in the race but I don't think I'd put him in the top 15 sprinters of the last few years.

happytramp

Diarmuid wrote: »

This BS is typical of this thread. The start list of this Tour was missing one top sprinter of the past 12 months and that's Bennett. The rest were there
https://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings/me/individual

He has beaten the best and in this form and confidence would have beaten Bennett too. Cav will be sending Bennett Christmas cards for years in thanks for his decision to give up his place in the Tour 2021.

Well the fun part is we'll get to see them go head to head next season hopefully.

equivariant

happytramp wrote: »

Yes he's currently the best in the race but I don't think I'd put him in the top 15 sprinters of the last few years.

Seriously??? He has just won 3 stages in the tour. If he did nothing else for the rest of the season that already puts him at the top of sprint world. Everyone on here was perfectly willing to proclaim Bennett as the world's best last year based on a similar performance. I don't think the field was much stronger apart from facing Ewan.

There's people in thus forum whinging that his 'top speed' doesn't compare to bennett. What does that even mean?

If anything this race has shown clearly how much it means to have morkov et al. leading you out. A fit Cavendish is clearly in the top 5 sprinters in the world. As for Sam it will be interesting to see how he performs without the DQS magic carpet.

DonegalBay

Boy does it bug me that someone like Cavendish is likely to overtake Merckx. It's a bad joke. Have believed for a long time that sprint stages should be given a lesser value somehow. People think that's crazy, but look at PCC all time rankings. Cav has now passed Contador, Gilbert and Cancellara and is ranked 27th or something!! Worse still, Andre Greipel who has never won a major race in his life is just behind, but ahead of Froome, Fignon, LeMond, Argentin, Bartoli, Bugno, Ullrich, Nibali, Museeuw, Bettini and countless others. Likewise, Robbie McEwen who also never won a major race either is ranked ahead of a lot of those guys. Loads and loads of GT sprint stages though. Personally I would not have Cav, Greipel, McEwen, Cipo, Petacchi or any other one trick pony sprinter anywhere near a Top 100 list.

Sprinters winning loads of stages has only really become common since the mid 90s with the arrival of sprint trains and entire teams shutting down races. That is why it is hard to compare sprinters across generations. Cav may have the best numbers, but how much would he have won pre 90s? Mario Cipollini was full of bravado of bragadacio, but one thing I give him kudos for is when he took the Giro record for stage wins from Alfredo Binda, he said "I may have the record, but I am not fit to tie Bindas boots". He knew exactly the value of his wins and had the humility to admit it.

happytramp

equivariant wrote: »

Seriously??? He has just won 3 stages in the tour. If he did nothing else for the rest of the season that already puts him at the top of sprint world. Everyone on here was perfectly willing to proclaim Bennett as the world's best last year based on a similar performance. I don't think the field was much stronger apart from facing Ewan.

There's people in thus forum whinging that his 'top speed' doesn't compare to bennett. What does that even mean?

If anything this race has shown clearly how much it means to have morkov et al. leading you out. A fit Cavendish is clearly in the top 5 sprinters in the world. As for Sam it will be interesting to see how he performs without the DQS magic carpet.

Hopefully similarly to 2019 when he was at Bora and won more WT races than any other rider.

Macy0161

G1032 wrote: »

But Ackermann, Viviani, Nizzolo and Gaviria. You're not seriously putting them in the same league as Cavendish? If they were there as twice as good as they are they wouldn't beat him.
Demare had his chance before elimination and couldn't beat him.
Groenewegen might never be the same again. Only time will tell.

I'd definitely have Cav as the best pure sprinter we've seen, just for his consistency in actually finishing the Tour.

However, Ackermann and Nizzolo would've been at a similar standard to pre-tour Cav imo. Who knows if they were there?

Demare was injured, that's why he was eliminated. Not forgetting Merlier, who did beat him (if the logic is you have to make the end to have a chance). Personally, I think Merlier would've been a better bet for AF (shows how sharing sprinting doesn't work imo).

Look, I don't begrudge Cav some good luck, after the bad luck and the struggles. And for actually sticking with it when he's surely made enough and a shoe in for punditry (if he wants too). But good luck he's had imo.

happytramp

DonegalBay wrote: »

Personally I would not have Cav, Greipel, McEwen, Cipo, Petacchi or any other one trick pony sprinter anywhere near a Top 100 list.
.

Wouldn't soneone who was just great at climbing qualify as a 'one trick pony' in that case?

sham58107

Firstly thanks to the OP for trouble in making this thread.

What now for Sam Bennett, back to team he had to go to court to leave Bora !

hope he has signed contract, not worth nearly as much now.

Next year after all time out what will he do ?

Cav won today , 3 now and in a sprint laden tour will get more, he can only beat who are there, so talk of this guy not in and other guy crashed a little lame.

DQS have got huge publicity from him, will Ewen go to them now Soudal are becoming co sponsor , with that lead out train, nobody will touch him .

Where will Sam go, and what about his " advisers " feel sorry for the guy.

Inquitus

sham58107 wrote: »

Firstly thanks to the OP for trouble in making this thread.

What now for Sam Bennett, back to team he had to go to court to leave Bora !

hope he has signed contract, not worth nearly as much now.

Next year after all time out what will he do ?

Cav won today , 3 now and in a sprint laden tour will get more, he can only beat who are there, so talk of this guy not in and other guy crashed a little lame.

DQS have got huge publicity from him, will Ewen go to them now Soudal are becoming co sponsor , with that lead out train, nobody will touch him .

Where will Sam go, and what about his " advisers " feel sorry for the guy.

Seems, from rumours and the like, that DQS offered Sam €1m over 2 years, and Bora €1.5m over 2 years, Sam took the money. Imho he'd have been better off taking the glory with DQS, and the ultimate sprint train, rather than cashing in with Bora. I guess these details will either be proven true or not once the embargo on announcing signings is lifted after the TDF ends.

equivariant

happytramp wrote: »

Wouldn't soneone who was just great at climbing qualify as a 'one trick pony' in that case?

+1

If you want to devalue sprint stages then I think we should neutralise the time gaps on mountaintop finishes

DonegalBay

happytramp wrote: »

Wouldn't soneone who was just great at climbing qualify as a 'one trick pony' in that case?

Well if you ever see the entire field arriving together at the end of a mountain stage, they might be in some way comparable, but that ain't the case, is it? I guess you could say Dan Martin is a one trick pony, but he is a way better 'cyclist' than Cavendish.

I just don't rate sprinters. IMO any race that ends in the entire bunch still together is not a proper race, yes they are a necessity in GTs to give riders days off. Let's be honest, if there was no such thing as sprint trains and the big guns decided to go for it every day, there would be very few bunch finishes.

Weepsie

That's just about the silliest thing that's been said in some time.

Of course it's a proper race it's just a different type of race.

Ill have a look at things he's won and laugh at the "one trick pony" thing, as it's a nonsense. You can dislike him fair enough, but monuments, a world championship and Olympic medals in a discipline other than road cycling suggest anything but a one trick pony and that he's a more rounded cyclist than an awful lot of the peleton.

Chips Lovell

DonegalBay wrote: »

I just don't rate sprinters. IMO any race that ends in the entire bunch still together is not a proper race, yes they are a necessity in GTs to give riders days off. Let's be honest, if there was no such thing as sprint trains and the big guns decided to go for it every day, there would be very few bunch finishes.

The reasons the big guns don't go for it every day is because they know there's no point, that it will be a bunch finish. If the conditions on a flat stage allow, e.g. cross winds, then they definitely will. It's not like they're not bothering and just leaving it to sprinters.

It is incredibly difficult to win a bunch sprint. You could be the fastest guy there, but one small mistake - go too soon, too late, get boxed in etc. - and your chances are dashed.

equivariant

DonegalBay wrote: »

Well if you ever see the entire field arriving together at the end of a mountain stage, they might be in some way comparable, but that ain't the case, is it? I guess you could say Dan Martin is a one trick pony, but he is a way better 'cyclist' than Cavendish.

I just don't rate sprinters. IMO any race that ends in the entire bunch still together is not a proper race, yes they are a necessity in GTs to give riders days off. Let's be honest, if there was no such thing as sprint trains and the big guns decided to go for it every day, there would be very few bunch finishes.

I can't agree with this. It's like saying that Paul Tergat is a better runner than Usain Bolt. Apples and oranges. Why should we value being small over explosive power and sprint bike handling skills? You are perfectly entitled to prefer one over the other but its purely subjective. Also if the 'big guns' went for it on a flat stage they would get their arses whipped by any half decent team with a sprinter.

Also, I'm a big fan of Dan Martin but I think even Dan himself woukd laugh at the notion that he is a way better cyclist than Cavendish.

eeeee

DonegalBay wrote: »

Well if you ever see the entire field arriving together at the end of a mountain stage, they might be in some way comparable, but that ain't the case, is it? I guess you could say Dan Martin is a one trick pony, but he is a way better 'cyclist' than Cavendish.

I just don't rate sprinters. IMO any race that ends in the entire bunch still together is not a proper race, yes they are a necessity in GTs to give riders days off. Let's be honest, if there was no such thing as sprint trains and the big guns decided to go for it every day, there would be very few bunch finishes.

It takes an incredible amount of skill to win a bunch sprint. Bike handling skills, tactics, timing, power, and that's after a stressful day in the bunch. People only pay attention to the last dash for teh line but it takes a hell of a lot to get there and be in the right position before you get to sprint skills.
I don't think being a climber/puncher/TT/classics is any more skilful or worthy than being a sprinter, or visa versa.
They're all different skills in the one sport, separated by physiology only.

at1withmyself

eeeee wrote: »

I don't think being a climber/puncher/TT/classics is any more skilful or worthy than being a sprinter, or visa versa.

But we can all agree that they are all better then Triathletes!

DonegalBay

Weepsie wrote: »

That's just about the silliest thing that's been said in some time.

Of course it's a proper race it's just a different type of race.

Ill have a look at things he's won and laugh at the "one trick pony" thing, as it's a nonsense. You can dislike him fair enough, but monuments, a world championship and Olympic medals in a discipline other than road cycling suggest anything but a one trick pony and that he's a more rounded cyclist than an awful lot of the peleton.

C'mon, even at amateur level there are guys who wouldn't be strong, but they can sit in a bunch on a flat circuit, get pulled along and then appear in the sprint at the end. Put them on any course with any level of difficulty and they would be gone out the back. There is a big difference in strongest rider v best sprinter.

A World Title on a flat circuit with a team dedicated to killing the race and pulling him to the final 200m, how is that different from any regular sprint? Same as when Cipo won his in 02. He did win one monument Milan-San Remo, which is the one which is the easiest for sprinters to win Petacchi, Cipo, Ciolek etc so hardly breaking the mould either.

I don't like sprinters in general, so obviously Cav would top the dislike chart

G1032

happytramp wrote: »

That's exactly where I'm putting him... This narrative that Cavendish after years without a victory has suddenly returned to his level of six years ago is nonsense. Yes he's currently the best in the race but I don't think I'd put him in the top 15 sprinters of the last few years.

I don't understand the logic here
Nizzolo had one great win in the Giro. I don't think he's won another race this year.
I don't recall Ackerman winning a race this year.
I can remember the last time either of Gaviria or Viviani won a race.
Pretty sure Groenewegen hasn't won since his return.

Whatever about Merlier, Ewan, on current form, or form this year, Cav blows the others out of the water. Them not being at the Tour doesn't matter because he's going to destroy them anyway. Same with Demare. I don't think he could touch Cav at the minute

Inquitus

G1032 wrote: »

I don't understand the logic here
Nizzolo had one great win in the Giro. I don't think he's won another race this year.
I don't recall Ackerman winning a race this year.
I can remember the last time either of Gaviria or Viviani won a race.
Pretty sure Groenewegen hasn't won since his return.

Whatever about Merlier, Ewan, on current form, or form this year, Cav blows the others out of the water. Them not being at the Tour doesn't matter because he's going to destroy them anyway. Same with Demare. I don't think he could touch Cav at the minute

I'd agree I would rate Cav this season as 3rd behind Sam and Caleb, a significant amount behind them mind, but the rest of them Cav has an edge on, Demare, Colbrelli, Merlier, Bouhanni, Sagan etc.

eeeee

DonegalBay wrote: »

C'mon, even at amateur level there are guys who wouldn't be strong, but they can sit in a bunch on a flat circuit, get pulled along and then appear in the sprint at the end. Put them on any course with any level of difficulty and they would be gone out the back. There is a big difference in strongest rider v best sprinter.

A World Title on a flat circuit with a team dedicated to killing the race and pulling him to the final 200m, how is that different from any regular sprint? Same as when Cipo won his in 02. He did win one monument Milan-San Remo, which is the one which is the easiest for sprinters to win Petacchi, Cipo, Ciolek etc so hardly breaking the mould either.

I don't like sprinters in general, so obviously Cav would top the dislike chart

Part of the skill of any kind of course is in knowing how to ride it. One of the major joys of cycling is that it doesn't happen by numbers, you have to engage your brain and be smart about it. Otherwise just have everyone do a test and give out the prizes on the turbos :rolleyes:
There's a world of skill at play beyond strength. There's skill (it's not that handy to just sit in a bunch, it's not like being in a queue, it's like being in a washing machine, it's constantly moving and changing) in holding a place in a bunch, skill in handling your bike and not losing any speed in the technical bits and corners.
Most of the best amateur riders in the country wouldn't make it out of the neutral roll out of any WT race on that basis alone - Cav said that.
And I can't stand Cav!

Weepsie

DonegalBay wrote: »

C'mon, even at amateur level there are guys who wouldn't be strong, but they can sit in a bunch on a flat circuit, get pulled along and then appear in the sprint at the end. Put them on any course with any level of difficulty and they would be gone out the back. There is a big difference in strongest rider v best sprinter.

A World Title on a flat circuit with a team dedicated to killing the race and pulling him to the final 200m, how is that different from any regular sprint? Same as when Cipo won his in 02. He did win one monument Milan-San Remo, which is the one which is the easiest for sprinters to win Petacchi, Cipo, Ciolek etc so hardly breaking the mould either.

I don't like sprinters in general, so obviously Cav would top the dislike chart

Which makes those guys better racers as they know how to win.

At the end of the day that's what matters. 5 classics, a monument, points jersey in all 3 GCS, 50 GC stage wins, a world championship, a shed load of stages in other multi day races and a bucket load on the track all point to just how incredibly wrong you are.

If they could all do it, then he wouldn't be winning that much. It's an infantile dismissal of someone who is a just a very, very good cyclist.

Keep comparing apples to oranges, you're just tying yourself up in knots.

None of this would be up for discussion of Sam was there today and winning..noone would care about the field. It would just be about how much better he was than them etc

happytramp

G1032 wrote: »

I don't understand the logic here
Nizzolo had one great win in the Giro. I don't think he's won another race this year.
I don't recall Ackerman winning a race this year.
I can remember the last time either of Gaviria or Viviani won a race.
Pretty sure Groenewegen hasn't won since his return.

Whatever about Merlier, Ewan, on current form, or form this year, Cav blows the others out of the water. Them not being at the Tour doesn't matter because he's going to destroy them anyway. Same with Demare. I don't think he could touch Cav at the minute

I suppose I feel it's a case that right now the current sprinting field (across the whole sport) isn't at a particularly high level. With the exception of Sam and Ewan All of the top guys over the last number of years are, for one reason or another, way off their best. Is Cav currently faster than the likes of Demare, Groneweggen, vivaini... Maybe? Or is it just the quickstep factor? Hard to say. Either way it seems like there's a gulf between Sam, Ewan and the others... With Merlier bringing up the best of the rest.

Weepsie

Cav didn't try and contest stage 3 either. Comments about how he wasn't even up there. Stage 3 was also carnage and was marked as a technical enough end for a sprint stage that would cause problems.

It could be that he knew it was going to be carnage, and thought it better to be around for another day whereas 2 of the main rivals are essentially out because of it.

And other "better" cyclists crashed in the bunch while being dragged around.

Weepsie

happytramp wrote: »

I suppose I feel it's a case that right now the current sprinting field (across the whole sport) isn't at a particularly high level. With the exception of Sam and Ewan All of the top guys over the last number of years are, for one reason or another, way off their best. Is Cav currently faster than the likes of Demare, Groneweggen, vivaini... Maybe? Or is it just the quickstep factor? Hard to say. Either way it seems like there's a gulf between Sam, Ewan and the others... With Merlier bringing up the best of the rest.

He won one of the stages with absolutely none of his team mates around, and instead followed the wheels of other teams.

Today his team was a big help, and another stage, but it's a bit of both. He's got a bit of guile that others don't.

MangleBadger

Was also a little disappointing that after Merlier’s stage win Alpecin decided to race for Philipsen. I wonder if Cav has the beating of Melrose as well.

Dr. Bre

Some say the classic riders are the best cyclists compared to sprinters and mountain goats . Certainly that’s the view from Belgium and the Netherlands . The roubaix type riders