General Rugby Discussion 3

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428860#Comment_119428860

Maybe it’s a cultural thing. We had a wife’s friend over from Sydney a couple of weeks ago with her 2 kids. They were flummoxed by our bins. We have only have 3. Recyclable, compost and rubbish. They’re even colour coded. They just couldn’t figure them out. When I asked them what bins they had they said it was just a singular rubbish bin. They live in a big city in a large, modern Western country and they find recycling odd. A decade after we started rolling out compost bins in earnest and domestic recycling isn’t widespread there yet. Not living in the 21st century is right!

Blut2

A lot of the Rugby League organisations really seem to be digging their heads into the sand on the dangers of concussion. They're going to get absolutely clobbered by legal cases within 5 years because of it I'd wager, and they'll really struggle to defend themselves given the growing body of evidence out there about it in all contact sports.

Union players suing over things that happened in 2000-2010 is one thing - the IRFU etc can make some argument that the dangers weren't as well known back then. But for anything since, and particularly on-going now, it gets harder and harder to plead ignorance.

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428996#Comment_119428996

Must be the company you keep. We had an Aussie auditor in my workplace recently. Young girl, attractive, washed out the milk cartons and, wait for it, almost scientifically folded them daily to put in the recycling bin. Needless to say some Irish were putting banana skins and tea bags in the same recycling bin. The ignorance.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426820#Comment_119426820

Yeah, agreed that it's not going to become a feature of the game as the concussion thing is rightly regarded as an existential threat to rugby in the north, but seeing another rugby championship kickoff with 20 minute reds makes me think they have 2 codes going here. That is a big rule difference in the same sport!

Personally I never got into league partly because it's one dimensional and partly because the hits, and the manner in which they are celebrated by the commentators, reminds me more of martial arts (or NFL) than ball sport, similar to the difference between Gaelic and AFL. But I do understand that that aspect of the game is much more valued in the Southern Hemisphere and that they are in a fight for eyeballs with league. Bigger picture is the eventually even RL will bend under the weight of class action law suits, Union should not be compromising on this or they risk that being used against them in court. Right now any lawyer could argue that the 20 minute red proves WR are window dressing and looking like they're doing something while placing players at risk by not eliminating the real danger from the game.

Lost Ormond

Interesting comments from Eddie Jones about players and their background of schools rugby etc...

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/jones-blames-public-schools-for-building-compliant-rugby-players/?fbclid=IwAR2ojLnAZJXroaoqwgmYq9e4OUFsRhgF5V4lyHr6YQ9xKJcb0EakHlvafcc

Anyone know how to watch this game?

connemara man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437634#Comment_119437634

Sky sports action

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437634#Comment_119437634

sky Sports Action

Former Former Former

30 seconds in and Faf absolutely sparked. Jesus that looks bad.

South Africa looking for that early score here - game at some pitch already.

The real Ritchie McCaw has gotten away with that a million times, the **** one doesn't have his invisibility cloak apparently.

Would need to see it again but looked like Cane had taken possession there before he was taken off his feet. It's a bit of a bug bear that ref's don't seem to pay attention to the actual steal and focus more on time on the ball at the breakdown and the jackler being on their feet. Hardly a game goes by where a clear turnover has occurred but isn't rewarded, must be very frustrating for players.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437820#Comment_119437820

I thought so as well, harsh penalty.

NZ under constant, suffocation pressure. SA by far the better side so far.

The penalty count is crazy in this game. I've never seen NZ get penalized so much.

eagle eye

This all means big changes in New Zealand before next year's World Cup. The old guys will be gone and they'll be back with a very strong team.

I know New Zealand eventually got the try but that chase and tackle from Willense was the play of the game for me.

eagle eye

The commentator is awful in the Argentina Vs Australia game.

Dave_The_Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119437616#Comment_119437616

If by interesting you mean self-excusing and distracting, sure.

It's best if one doesn't pay attention to Jones about a) English rugby while b) he's at the top job.

For better results, change a with c) anything and b with d) ever. The man is a good coach but utterly self serving and a total prick to boot.

If your friends/colleagues were like that, would you listen to them?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439568#Comment_119439568

Is it a distraction? With EJ probably. But his point about schools and likes of harrow etc and a closeted life is very true and rugby needs to get beyond that with more players from a far wider diverse background.

His point about popularity of the sport and kids is also very fair. do you not agree?

The Nal

Really takes the sheen off "Irelands greatest ever sporting result".

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439862#Comment_119439862

Nah, it doesn’t really take the sheen off anything. But you enjoy your bitterness there.

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440344#Comment_119440344

Yeah it does. This isnt th NZ of 2011 or 2015. Theyve lost 5 of their last 6 games now (France, Ireland and SA) and conceded 169 points in the process.

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440370#Comment_119440370

I wonder which team scored most of those points?

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440370#Comment_119440370

It doesn’t really matter what generation of All Blacks you look at. There’s a reason only three teams had won a three test series in NZ in over 100 years.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440370#Comment_119440370

It doesnt if you look at the history of new zealand rugby. theres good reason so few teams have won test series down in new zealand, why new zealands success rate against everyone is so strong etc

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440370#Comment_119440370

NZ have lost games against the 3 best teams in the world currently. We beat them convincingly at home and in NZ. SA and France beat them at home. That's a big difference.

Rugbymad2020

And they beat u even more convincingly too

A conclusive camera angle on the Alun Wyn Jones card incident:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/wj5seh/exclusive_redditcom_vision_sheds_new_light_on/

Dave_The_Sheep

I'm sure there will be plenty of "mea culpa" from those across the sea who went absolutely batshit crazy at that yellow card.

But I doubt it.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440370#Comment_119440370

They lost 5 of their last 6 games in large part because they lost to us 3 times!

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119446309#Comment_119446309

103 of those 169 points were scored by us too. Our average points scored in NZ was 24.6 points. It was 25.5 if you ignore the 2nd test and the cards they received. We did this while also getting across the line a further 6 times without scoring in the first test. We scored an average of 3 tries per game, 3.3 of you take out the second test.

SA scored 26 points at home. They scored just 2 tries. And both had a large element of fortune. They didn’t cross the line other than those 2 times.

NZ also had far more unforced errors vs SA. And SA are a good side. So we actually compare more than favourably against the reigning world champions no matter what way you slice or dice it. If you look at metres made, defenders beaten, clean breaks, gain line carries….we were better than SA pretty much across the board in all of those. Away from home. They were at home.

Its cute how some try to demean things they don’t understand. It’s fun proving that they don’t.

OldRio

https://twitter.com/spkeene/status/1556720780016291841?s=20&t=KosiuEjLheluQjG23KG5Gg

This doesn't make good reading for the Premiership Clubs or the RFU.

(If true of course)

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449878#Comment_119449878

Thought it was common knowledge that only 2 or 3 Premiership clubs actually paid their way from Revenue , the rest are reliant on the deep pockets of their sugar-daddy owners.

Wasps have been in and out of potential bankruptcy for years.

Burkie1203

Wasps have those bond things on the go which are due to be repaid soon IIRC

Whom owns that stadium does anyone know

errlloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450038#Comment_119450038

The bonds are overdue repayment, they are already in default. They were supposed to be repaid in May. 7 year bonds issued in 2015. They're going to continue to pay the interest on them but they're desperately trying to refinance them. At the moment they're paying 6.5% interest on £35m in debt, they pay in 6 monthly installments. It's about £1.15m every 6 months. They're also pretty quickly increasing the debt to their owner.

They own the stadium I believe - but they sure aren't doing too well out of it if they can't find investors to refinance the debt. I'm not 100% sure how this works, but I think that realistically they have a couple of weeks to sort something out or they're gone. And that solves the 13 team premiership problem.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449953#Comment_119449953

One club, Exeter, from the last report I read in the guardian. Whole system there and in France is fucked . Financial survival is the reason I think there will eventually be a Euro league. The game is not sustainable as is currently.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450132#Comment_119450132

Thought Leicester did as well , but maybe not recently...

I agree , the whole model in England and France is unsustainable - Central contracts and ownership is the only viable option.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119439782#Comment_119439782

I don't think it really stands up to scrutiny. He specifically namechecked Harrow, and from his current squad, Maro Itoje,

Itoje was born in Camden, to Nigerian immigrant parents. He won a scholarship to go Harrow for his final years of school. He's absolutely not from some ultra-privileged background. Similar scenarios with guys like Billy Vunipola (scholarship to Harrow), Mako Vunipola (scholarship to Millfield).

Plenty of other English players also went to expensive schools, but quite a few didn't.

The bigger point is, he, of all international coaches, can't complain about his playing pool. He has a huge depth of players to pick from, and any comments he makes in this space to me are just deflections from his own relative underperformance.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450132#Comment_119450132

Any Euro league would completely kill the Heineken cup. So between that and replacing the pre-existing league revenue on top (particularly for the URC, which seems to be doing very well in that regard now thanks to the influx of Saffer broadcast revenue) it'd make the accounting very interesting/problematic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450369#Comment_119450369

Think we’ll end up with a franchise model in those countries too. Every time it’s mentioned in England it gets a little closer; is taken a little more seriously.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450903#Comment_119450903

ive thought for a while they should go with counties for their top tier teams

AbusesToilets

For me, the best path for Rugby's growth and sustainability is a franchise style set up in a Euro league. A closed ecosystem, with shared revenues and a workable salary cap. Everyone talks about the excitement of promotion/ relegation, but it's just less and less workable in professional sports. In football, a club coming up is typically going to stay on the bottom unless it has a billionaire pumping money in. You see the same pattern in rugby now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450993#Comment_119450993

I agree. I think it’s the only sustainable model and will bring in investment due to its stability. I think the promotion / relegation thing is massively overdone as the gulf, at least in England, between the premiership and the rest is a chasm (excepting the one team that yo-yos up and down - normally Newcastle or Irish, excepting the Saracens demotion). After that you’re down to the likes of Ealing and Jersey. Franchising won’t change the dynamic much - will just bring stability of financing and better ability to plan. Only question is what do you do with the 13th team in that top tier, assuming the model is 12 franchises.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450993#Comment_119450993

The top 14 has 14 teams. The Premiership 13, and the URC 16. Any new proposed Euro league is going to be limited to 18 teams at most.

So at 6 per source league (English/French/URC) that would mean we'd get one, maybe at most two Irish teams to send. How would you propose its decided to permanently sentence three of Ulster/Munster/Leinster/Connacht to a second division of rugby? How do you think this will go down with their fans and players?

How do you think the Scottish RFU will choose between Edinburgh and Glasgow, in the same scenario? Because they'll only get one team. And it'll be the same choice for every union.

No relegation is going to be a complete non-runner because it would absolutely gut the support and funding of any team permanently forced to reside in the second division.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451172#Comment_119451172

The obvious model would be similar to the NFL. Franchises in four to five team conferences which play a rotating schedule leading up to playoffs. Could accommodate as many teams as you want really, while keeping number of games played in the 16-20ia range. NFL is at 32 currently.

It also gives room for future expansion, to perhaps bring in teams from Tier 2 nations

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451315#Comment_119451315

The NFL is effectively two different leagues of 16, with teams in the NFC and AFC only guaranteed to play teams in the other conference once every 4 years, and with two entirely separate playoff systems. So that wouldn't be one Euro league, it'd be two.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451374#Comment_119451374

Teams in each conference play teams in the other conference every year. They rotate which conferences they play against on a 4 year cycle. They are absolutely in a singular league.

That's no argument against using that asa model for rugby

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450993#Comment_119450993

I'd imagine that's very difficult to achieve on a cross-country basis.

How would multiple unions agree to a common salary cap when their spending ability is vastly different? If the salary cap is set at French levels it'd be an uncompetitive structure dominated by a handful of teams, if it's set low to give a level playing field then teams in Japan and the SH will poach all the best non-exempt players who are playing below their value.

What about a draft system and how would it be workable across a continent?

RichieRich_89

Things are looking up for the URC, the French have no good reason to abandon what works for them, and a Euro league would surely mean the end for the European Cup. There aren't enough good reasons to do it, and plenty of reasons not to.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451494#Comment_119451494

Team A (lets say the Patriots for example) in the AFC play team B (lets say the Packers) in the NFC only once every 4 years. The last time they played each other was in 2018, and before that 2014. The two conference are for all intents and purposes two separate leagues, there are no annual home and away games (even off season H/A fixtures like the 6Ns) or consistent games between any two sets of teams in them.

Under this proposed two conference rugby model of yours any of the better teams in conference A would play the better teams in conference B *less* than they currently do with the Champions Cup and domestic leagues set-up. As things currently stand the top 10 teams of European rugby play each other more often than once every 4 years. So its a complete non-runner for broadcast revenue generation for this alone, even aside from all the myriad of other faults with the idea.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451662#Comment_119451662

Yet somehow the NFL grows in popularity and wealth, year after year with this exact model. If the lack of best versus best is such a concern, an open draw for the playoffs would ameliorate that issue, where all the teams are put into the same pool and seeded accordingly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451534#Comment_119451534

That's accounting, not an insurmountable obstacle. Taking the US sports leagues as an example, you have different tax codes across the country, as well as Canadian teams. Having a shared revenue stream, with a guaranteed floor would help make the concept of a salary cap more functional, and curtail unsustainable wage levels. I don't think a draft would be required, teams have their own academies, and having a shared calendar would make it less of an issue for players to move abroad, as the international release windows would be the same for everyone.