General Rugby Discussion 3

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451738#Comment_119451738

You were apparently under the impression that each team in each separate NFL conference play each other every year in a singular league, and as for "somehow the NFL grows in popularity and wealth, year after year with this exact model":

https://i.imgur.com/707EJ5u.jpg

It would seem your knowledge of the NFL is rather lacking.

The two conference system is a not an optimum sports league model and rumours regularly emanate from the NFL about discarding it. The main reason its still in place is its hard to change a system thats 50+ years old, not because its an efficient way to run a sport.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452097#Comment_119452097

I'm very familiar with the NFL, as was made clear in my answer to you with respect teams playing cross conference.

There is no issues with profit in the NFL, and I'm presuming your graphic relates purely to television, and doesn't incorporate streaming etc. You'll perhaps have noted the massive bidding war currently happening with respect to the various packages they offer to media companies, with Amazon and Apple competing to secure them.

https://sports.yahoo.com/goodell-25-billion-revenue-goal-050137936.html

Dave_The_Sheep

Why the **** would we want to emulate the NFL of all organisations to try and be like? They're awful.

Rugbymad2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119449600#Comment_119449600

Big difference to NZ when they play SA.rugbys biggest rivalry.u seem to want to talk ireland up but u seem to forget that this bad NZ team hammered u aswell.u conceded 11 tries in 3 games to that Nz team.if u look at the stats from

game one against game one of the SA vs NZ game then u were nowhere near the stats of SA.but u seem to just cheery pick.wait till World Cup and see where u finish,1/4 at best

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452348#Comment_119452348

Comparing the 2 first games stats, Ireland scored 3 tries to SAs 2. We made 352m to SAs 343. We beat 16 defenders to SAs 9. We made 3 clean breaks to SAs 3. We made 79 gain line carries to SAs 49. We created 6 try scoring opportunities that we didn’t convert to SAs 0. There isn’t a single attacking metric that SA were better across those 2 games. Not one.

We did concede 11 tries in 3 games. 6 of those in the first test. 3 of those in a 10 min period where we went to pot in a way we hadn’t done before under Farrell. So there were some defensive issues to look at, but we adapted after the first test to address them. And as I said, NZ didn’t make as many unforced errors against us as against SA. So they were always in a better place to score more because of that. And it was one of those unforced errors that gifted SA their second try. SA didn’t create that themselves. In fact SA struggled to create anything at all against one of the worst NZ sides we’ve seen in decades. Something that Ireland certainly didn’t have any issues with. Plus let’s not forget that SA were at home and Ireland were away from home. That’s worth a few points in either side of the ball from the start.

blackwhite

 We created 6 try scoring opportunities that we didn’t convert to SAs 0. There isn’t a single attacking metric that SA were better across those 2 games. Not one.

Attack efficiency appears to be one that SA were better in

Rugbymad2020

Not sure where u looking at stats but u made 305m in the first game to SA making 343m

Rugbymad2020

My mistake I was looking at Ireland 2nd game,which was their first win.anyway my point is that I wouldnt look to much into result against Nz at the moment.wait till the World Cup for a true reflection on where both or all 3 teams are.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452661#Comment_119452661

We scored 3 tries and created 6 other opportunities so were 3 from 9. They scored 2 tries but only actually created 1 opportunity all game, so were 1 from 1. It’s easier to be more efficient with far less opportunities. That they didn’t create the opportunities speaks to their attacking game overall. Even the one they created came from an up and under which was a real 50:50 and could have easily not panned out the way it did.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452800#Comment_119452800

That was the second test, not the first. We made 352m in the first test, 305m in the second test and 347m in the 3rd.

EDIT: Saw your follow up after posting this. We can see where the teams are now from performances now. Things can change in 12 months and teams may be in a different place then. And we can reevaluate at that stage. There is never a singular position where things are true. Unfortunately 2 of the best teams in the world will be gone before the SFs. And that will be based on a one off performance, which isn’t always the best way to determine where a team is at. The example of Edinburgh making the HEC SF in 2012 being a classic illustration that knock out rugby isn’t always a barometer of a teams quality.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452999#Comment_119452999

I'm not particularly trying to argue for the great attacking play of SA, more it highlights that Ireland's attack efficiency is somewhere we should be looking to improve. We're leaving too many points on the field when you look at our 22 visits and try-scoring chances

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453154#Comment_119453154

I’m not sure I’d agree with that tbh. We scored 24 tries in the 6Ns. The next best was France on 17 and then Scotland on 11. We weren’t clinical enough in the first test in NZ certainly, but over the last year we’ve scored an average of 4.6 tries per game over the 11 games. That first test in NZ was the only time a team scored more tires than us in a game. We were 2 a piece in the second test. And in the other 9 games we played, including France in Paris, we scored more tries than our opposition did.

Granted I don’t have stats for scores from red zone entries, but again that in itself can be somewhat misleading. If a team isn’t getting into the red zone then there are probably issues with their attack that are more fundamental than a team who can get into the red zone but struggle to score. I’d argue that in the last year we have been getting into the red zone a lot and also scoring a lot. Maybe we are leaving the red zone without scores proportionally more than some others but we are still scoring more tries than they are, which ultimately is what counts.

Oddly, where we have struggled most is when we have a numbers advantage. Against Italy, England and NZ in the second test we seemed to make harder work of creating and finishing opportunities. And obviously that first test in NZ we somehow managed to get over the line 6 times without scoring. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen that many ball held up or spilled over the line in one game before. But otherwise I’d be very happy with our attack tbh.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450100#Comment_119450100

https://twitter.com/adrian_slabbert/status/1557313051606630400?s=19

Wasps in big trouble

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452222#Comment_119452222

couldnt agree more, most american 'sports' are just souless bollox of the highest order

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452222#Comment_119452222

They're insanely successful and popular?

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454869#Comment_119454869

For the owners perhaps , but they aren't exactly a model of Player welfare and best practice.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452143#Comment_119452143

You said, and I quote, "the NFL grows in popularity year after year" as a defense of its conference system. Yet yearly TV viewership figures, and yearly attendances which have also been declining slowly over the past 20 years (despite the US population increasing substantially in the that time period) show the complete opposite.

Its losing popularity with Americans every year. The % of Americans who watch games, and who attend them, is in decline.

Nice attempt to try to move the goal posts when the facts proved you completely wrong, though.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455129#Comment_119455129

You posted a graph, with no supporting link, that I'm presuming only represents Nielson ratings. That ignores all streaming, as well as overseas markets. I provided a link show an increase in revenue, driven by an increase in ad generated income. Do you think that companies would spend more for advertising if viewership was declining?

Jog on with your gotcha efforts.

Downlinz

The strongest aspect of American sports is in the structures to promote competition and an exciting, balanced league. Salary caps (which every participating team has the capacity to reach) prevent rich investors buying up the best talent and dominating, while drafts help the weaker teams get the best young players and prevent teams in cities with a high population from controlling all the talent.

The system doesn't work without both those things and it'd be complete bedlam trying to implement it across a continent. Imagine Dragons losing every game in a season but being rewarded by drafting the best Irish schools player with the first pick, or Zebre picking up Jack Conan and Harry Byrne because Leinster are unable to offer them similar salaries given their larger squad and the salary cap.

Without those structures any sort of similar format would be destined to fail since it'd quickly reach the usual outcome of being dominated by the richest few as supporters of the rest lose interest.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454953#Comment_119454953

The NFLPA is significantly more powerful than any rugby player equivalent. They play fewer games and can not increase the number without agreement from the players.

Its obviously very American in everything it does, including the massive power of the ownership. But the players actually have far more input than rugby players pretty much anywhere. And they completely dominate the American sports market and have a significant global impact. An NFL game in Munich sells out a lot quicker than a rugby game in Chicago.

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455337#Comment_119455337

Euro league is never going to happen. Comparing it to to a Sunday game in the States is ridiculous. College sports command the Saturday market there and it is non comparable with rugby in Europe.

AbusesToilets

With greater visibility on the health impacts of the game, I feel we're approaching a breaking point. There are too many games being played by players, and either the international game will suffer or the club game needs to be reorganized.

The weakness of governing bodies and rugby, versus the ownership of the club game, is a real stumbling block to reform that is necessary for the game

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119455611#Comment_119455611

Massive revenues, local tribalism and unpaid players, it's more like the GAA really.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453479#Comment_119453479

As the problem of the 13 team league goes the problem of the Challenge Cup going from 20 to 19 teams emerges

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/joeharvey34/status/1559885809498595331?t=sMKAfs_J-zRzDhV-4EECag&s=19

.....

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/TelegraphRugby/status/1560302621918887939?t=z2jaJqpgzeiYwNL44AlKsA&s=19

....

Any sense in the RFU buying Wasps and Worcester and moving the game there away from the billionaires toy it has become?

(The owners of) these clubs were happy enough to take a wrecking ball to the previous iterations of the HEC in an effort to make their non-profitable businesses profitable so it's hard to have any real sympathy for them. Feel very sorry for the players, staff and fans though.

Pro rugby is in a really weird and unstable place atm.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491620#Comment_119491620

No. RFU dont have the money and wouldnt be in there interests. Would cause uproar with lot of other clubs considering RFU have been reducing funding going to championship clubs and others in league system for RFU to then buy out these clubs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119491718#Comment_119491718

well, what becomes of the pro league there if teams start to fold? The other teams in the league have built their revenue projections including having 2 homes that may not happen now. A league needs a certain number of teams to be credible and viable but neither Wasps or Worcester are good investments for anyone hoping to make money from them.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492432#Comment_119492432

They are good potential investments but it wont be from the RFU. There would be uproar in england if they did. RFU funding for championship sides has already been slashed The RFU has a remit to provide rugby for all and 2 teams struggling wouldnt be great but they can be replaced. The extensive money needed to run these teams is far better of use in clubs in championship, national 1 and down the grades and development officers etc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492617#Comment_119492617

What makes you think they are good investments?

The entire move to Coventry for Wasps always reeked of a property development with a rugby club attached, imo.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493545#Comment_119493545

English Rugby clubs are not good investments , they just aren't.

They are hobby/vanity projects at best.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493587#Comment_119493587

I agree, that's why I'm curious to hear why LO sees both clubs as good investments.

Afaik, Saracens were deliberately structured to run at a loss so their owner could write-off the losses against the profits for his other investments for tax purposes but eventually the Revenue there starting digging around it and it ended up with them being relegated and the club name forever tarnished as serial cheats. Their owner got a bill from the Revenue for it too, I think (?). (Personally think they got off lightly, they should have been stripped of their titles, imo)

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/how-wasps-lost-the-battle-for-coventrys-hearts-and-minds/

Interesting overview of the Wasps situation, even if they find a millionaire willing to spunk 10's of millions on them, their current business model appears to be doomed to failure. Very hard to win over a fanbase who actively don't want you there. Fwiw, the Revenue are seemingly chasing them for non-payment of things like (the UK equivalent of) PAYE and PRSI, they are in deep, deep trouble.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/RugbyTimes/status/1561008864979550208?t=TqRjfyXOHA3pEP8JC_H-JQ&s=19

bonkers numbers

....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119498329#Comment_119498329

Seemingly the Worcester owners have separated the land holdings of the club into separate ownership to the club itself. Likewise Wasps have shut their charity and changed the ownership of their training grounds. Both clubs are saying it's normal business practice, but it arguably could be putting assets outside of an administrator's (and therefore liquidators' and debtors') reach...

ersatz

TV show about converting US college athletes to rugby to ‘win the world cup’.

https://americanraptors.com/rugbytown/

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493587#Comment_119493587

All professional rugby is a vanity project tbh.

I doubt anyone, anywhere is making any money from it.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1561085077421019136?t=sxEdkJ8zFUHyX3Ph8U6m6A&s=19

.......

Itxa

Posters documenting the demise of English clubs demonstrates the small mindedness of said posters. Grand, learn lessons from them but hanging on every update about their impending doom shows how small said posters are. Move on.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119499506#Comment_119499506

??

you really are living in an alternative reality

Thanks posters, for keeping us updated as to the goings on in the premiership

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119499506#Comment_119499506

Presume that's aimed at me?

I don't take any pleasure from seeing any club (in any sport tbh) disappear but I am interested in the business side of sport. Wasps are a 6 time premiership champion (which only exists since the late 80's), and the club itself is one of the oldest in the world (albeit the professional iteration split from the still existing amateur team some years back). If they can't make a go of professional rugby something is desperately wrong with the professional game.

My original entry on this was whether now was the time for the RFU to step in and start buying clubs so the game there can be run on a sustainable level. if we get into an arms race with financial cheats like Nigel Wray at Saracens we (that is, the entire sport) could lose. Personally think Wray is clearly not a fit and proper person to own a professional sporting body, though maybe those rules don't exist in rugby.

I'd also add, a decade of trying to keep up with cheats like Saracens has seemingly left at least 2 clubs in England broke. They are in this mess in part because others in the league queered the pitch. Saracens can buy up every cup going and make every other side in European rugby bankrupt trying to keep up but is that the point of any sport?

Itxa

Not particularly you Harvey. You outlined the financial breakdown which explained where other clubs might or might not be liable. I was aiming more at Burkie who posted two updates in four hours.

rje66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119499001#Comment_119499001

Ain't gonna happen soon, usa rugby in disarray these days

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119499744#Comment_119499744

It's genuinely seismic if Wasps go, imo, less so Worcester, though obviously also sad.

Wasps should be, in theory, a massively popular side but despite all their success they've never, afaik, really grabbed massive attendances. The move to Coventry seems to have been a disaster, partly because, as outlined in the article I posted earlier, Coventry already had a rugby side. It just looks like a move that made much more sense in paper than in reality.

But if one of the most successful teams in the pro era couldn't find fans in a city the size of London, to the point that they felt a move into another side's area was a good one, just where is pro rugby going?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119499881#Comment_119499881

The problem wasn't that they couldn't find fans in London, the problem was finding facilities in London. Coventry had a stadium available and the opportunity to develop a modern training ground, that's why they went there. I'm sure they would still have a large following in London had they stayed there.

The existence of a lower level rugby club in Coventry wasn't really an issue, that would have been the case anywhere they went or if it wasn't the case, it shows there is no market for rugby there. The issue was that the soccer club had deep roots in the city and Wasps were seen as taking advantage of the soccer club's demise which didn't go down well with the locals.

OldRio

It seems Coventry City FC have had to cancel home games because the pitch is unplayable. Wasps are in all sorts of trouble.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119499744#Comment_119499744

I didn't post two updates in 4 hours, I posted links to twitter regarding an ever evolving situation in the premiership, its a league we have a competitive link to via European Cup.

There has been a lot more written elsewhere on the situation which I didn't post here

Not sure what your problem is TBH, but I figured this is important given the competitive links we have with said league and how this may have an impact down the line

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119500346#Comment_119500346

Well, either way it looks like a fairly foolish move atm but time will tell I suppose.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119499744#Comment_119499744

Oh no, someone posted updates on something people have an interest in. How very dare they!