General Rugby Discussion 3

TomsOnTheRoof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119914218#Comment_119914218

He didn't contact match officials. He contacted the French ref chief and complained about inconsistent decisions being made by match officials with regard to high tackles.

Lost Ormond

Better suited to here than Junior rugby/AIL threads...

Thoughts on this...

https://www.talkingrugbyunion.co.uk/its-now-a-dog-eat-dog-approach-where-the-bigger-clubs-dont-care-if-they-put-someone-out-of-business/34836.htm

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119917607#Comment_119917607

I was reading a discussion on a Welsh forum recently about Welsh problems.

A consensus that was reached was that the majority of WRU grants to amateur clubs (about 5 million per annum) was disappearing as boot money despite the clubs not being supposed to pay at all.

I don't want to say that lower league clubs can't pay players but I have to ask what they realistically expect to get from it. Its just a blackhole that will bankrupt junior clubs.

Red Silurian

Saw this earlier this am, politicians not happy about what happened at Worcester and Wasps.

One of the comments suggests an all-island league URC style competition would be a good idea for England/Scotland and Wales. Would be a strange one in my mind

https://www.the42.ie/english-rugby-5929621-Nov2022/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119918904#Comment_119918904

One of the comments suggests an all-island league URC style competition would be a good idea for England/Scotland and Wales. 

Wasn't this notion utterly dismissed by the CEO of Premiership Rugby as "not a current serious consideration", and unlikely to be seen in the next decade?

The RFU chief also said there haven't been any real or active discussions on the topic.

Exceptionalism will only get you so far. The reality is the English clubs should probably be thinking about getting into the URC rather than Scottish and Welsh clubs leaving their fortunes completely up to chance in a mismanaged league.

Blut2

We should swap the 4 Welsh teams for the top 4 English clubs. That would make everyone happy.

CatFromHue

The Welsh teams are away in SA this weekend and next. There's a good chance they won't win one game!

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1596554586893975554?t=Wh8Svr2OLhlo0q2gFWGHVw&s=19

Sad news

CatFromHue

He was at one of the recent games and was looking very ill.

It's just a terrible illness.

blackwhite

A close friend lost his father to MND a few years ago. There came a point where the family knew it would be a release for him to reach the end point, no matter how painful it was for those left behind.

Seeing Doddie Weir at Murrayfield reminded me of the last time I saw my friends dad, maybe a month before he passed. Hopefully his family can remembering a good life well lived prior to his illness, knowing that there’s no more suffering

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119918954#Comment_119918954

Not sure if it was dismissed so I'll take your word on that.. If the 6 scottish/welsh teams were to join the 11 premiership sides you could feasibly create a league similar to the URC. I know that Dragons and Edinburgh are owned by their respective unions (possibly Glasgow as well) so I can see the English clubs being not too happy with that setup

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119923170#Comment_119923170

Welsh and SA national teams both played over the weekend so what happened with the clubs was going to be a bit unpredictable

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119928951#Comment_119928951

It was dismissed in the same article it was mentioned in. The Premiership clubs won’t want less home games. Which is what happened with the pro 14 when it expanded. Also games against Dragons or Ospreys are unlikely to draw big crowds. There is very little if anything attractive about this for the English clubs.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119929941#Comment_119929941

Welsh fans might travel to Bath/Exeter away games because they are sort of close , but they won't travel to many of the other games.

They barely make it to home games as it is.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119928951#Comment_119928951

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/tonights-rugby-news-anglo-welsh-25598808

One of the questions asked of was whether they saw any future in the proposal of an Anglo-Welsh league. Mr Massie-Taylor said: "It's not a current serious consideration." He then agreed it was not something fans would see in the next decade or so.

RFU boss Mr Sweeney said of the proposals, which surface from time to time: "I've heard it and I've seen it referenced but there haven't been any real active conversations about an Anglo-Welsh league.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930055#Comment_119930055

reminds me of this.

Word online seems to be that Pivac is gone today.

If they go back to Gatland it's a real sign that they're completely out of ideas in Welsh rugby.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930467#Comment_119930467

Yeah seems so. Pivac was supposed to go on a World Cup planning trip to France yesterday and pulled out of the trip.

Gatland on a 12-month deal is virtually guaranteed.

sydthebeat

the rugby world has progressed way beyond "warren ball", and that golden generation that Gatland had from 2012 onwards are on their last legs.

His grand slam in 2019 reminded me so much of Fergusons last premier league title in 2013, where weight of personality alone got the last drop of blood from the stone of declining players.

his time at the chiefs when he went back to NZ showed he struggles when he cannot apply the power game. His first season was a disaster with 0 wins from 8 games. A move upwards to DOR followed so its debatable if the upturn in performances which resulted in a second place Aotearoa and a 5th place finish in trans tasman were his results, or clayton mcmillians result, the new head coach.

Gatland would get them out of the pool, but a quarter final win against england is looking highly unlikely

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930750#Comment_119930750

Don't disagree with any of that , but to be fair to Gatland he always seemed to get the Welsh playing above themselves - No matter how poorly the clubs teams were going , he managed to get them all to step up several notches when they played for him.

He is the definition of "caretaker manager" though - Bringing him in as he has coached the majority of the squad very recently and knows all the back-room details.

He'll get them playing with a bit more structure and a bit more bite and will make them harder to beat , but he won't make them any more likely to win against the Top 5/6 teams.

sydthebeat

yeah, i look at south africa and the rassie situation where he came in 18 months out and completely transformed that team.

i just don't think gatland has the raw material to change a lot of the on field personnel, and his go to guys are really pushing on in years. ive been personally saying for ages that their options at lock are pitifully poor. AWJ is still a good player but cannot offer the consistency needed for a 6n or rwc. If Adam Beard hadnt the physicality hed never have made it as an international rugby player. Theyve tried 5 different newly capped locks alongside Beard or AWJ underPivac and none have shown any consistency at test level, resulting in having to revert back to Jake Ball and Cory Hill.

id love to see Gatland come in for the novelty of it. But as you say i dont see him being able to make wales competitive in the next 6N or realistically at RWC 23. They wouldn't lose to Georgia or Italy under gatland though, but i dont think thats what the welsh public demand.

pickarooney

Eddie Jones to take over Wales?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119931020#Comment_119931020

theyd have to fold 2 teams to afford him 😅

stephen_n

I think with Rassie and SA, the raw materials were there. They were just really poorly coached. As highlighted, for Wales that simply isn’t true. If he could keep all of the old guard injury free. Gatland might be able to cobble together a team that could compete. The way England are playing at present. He might even be able to beat them in a quarter. Which would just paper over the massive cracks in Welsh Rugby.

Seems ROG might have been playing some of his old Miami Dolphins tricks on La Rochelle by repeatedly talking up his interest in the England job, as it appears he is about to sign a 3-year extension at Stade Rochelais to take him out to 2027.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2022/11/30/ronan-ogara-set-to-extend-la-rochelle-stay-despite-england-links-reports/

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938850#Comment_119938850

One way to get the deal you want... ROG isn't the only one who does it in fairness

AbusesToilets

Hope he can coach Leinster in the future, think he'd be a great fit

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940609#Comment_119940609

Not until he sorts out his behaviour. I doubt any Irish side will hire him until he stops getting banned for his reactions to match officials. He also has a bit of a history of responding to supporter criticism on social media in, let’s say, less than constructive ways.

Clegg

Still holding out for Tony Brown to one day join Leinster.

I just want to see madshit on the pitch.

Red Silurian

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2022/1130/1339263-epcr-optimistic-club-rugby-world-cup-will-happen/

Club World Cup drum being beaten again. Aussies and Kiwis want a slice of the European money without the risk that was taken in Europe back in the 90s

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943419#Comment_119943419

What risk was that?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943419#Comment_119943419

it would be interesting to see "when" during the yearly calendar, something like this would be designed for.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943492#Comment_119943492

Depends on the format it takes and the number of teams involved.

If it were a full blown 16-32 team tournament you'd need to set aside 5 or 6 weeks minimum like we do for the (National Team) World Cup so we would probably have to shorten the leagues substantially.

If it were a 2-4 team knockout or round robin it could be held over 2 or 3 weekends so there's a bit of space there with the recent reduction in EPCR/English Premiership/URC games. Think SR is now 17 rounds, including playoffs?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943474#Comment_119943474

In the formation of every business venture there is a risk, in terms of professional club rugby in Europe the unions and many private investors would have gone bust had the public not gotten behind the tournaments

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943857#Comment_119943857

SR is 18 rounds including playoffs.

assuming its a 16 team competition?? 4 from URC, Top 14, Premiership and SR.. play off in 2 groups where the draw would be made beforehand so that teams in their own league dont meet in 1st 2 rounds.

2 groups of 8 teams = QFs - Sfs - group final - overall final Group A winner v group B winner

so thats 5 weeks given to it, including final

i think the organisers would prefer some kind of group stages though, and run a competition like the RWC which would take up 7 weeks.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943869#Comment_119943869

I understand that but I don't see what was different between Europe and the SH. When pro rugby was launched in 95/96 everyone was taking a risk.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943893#Comment_119943893

SR is 18 rounds including playoffs.

I'm fairly sure it's 14 regular season, 11 home or away + 3 Derbies + 3 playoffs but we won't fall out over 1 round :) the point is that a 2 week tournament would fit in their calendar

For a 7 week competition you would likely need to axe the Champions cup or remove half the rounds from the domestic leagues and remove a few SR games.

Such a situation would be a huge financial hit to the 37 non-participating top tier clubs (12 URC +7 EP +10 T14 + 8 SR)

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943962#Comment_119943962

while you are correct that there are 17 games per team to final, there are actually 15 rounds in the regular season as rounds 6, 7 and 8 are abridged with only 4 games in each round.. so stretching 2 rounds into 3 weeks.... meaning the regular season is 15 rounds long and not 14

but hey, whos counting 😅

on the club competition, i certainly wouldn't like to see an expanded version akin to the RWC. the likes of the chiefs playing castres wouldnt attract me at all. leave it as the best v the best.

Clegg

In the last 72 hours there has been stories that a coach England hired to improve the culture amongst the senior squad, is considering quitting after just 6 weeks on the job. And also hat England's head doctor has resigned.

To top that off, Eddie Jones' closest advisor accused the CEO of the RFU of leaking these stories to the press in order to tarnish Jones' reputation.

All that stuff could potentially be ignored if England had shown any indication of progress in the last two years. But they've been steadily regressing in performance. Things are becoming incredibly toxic and I'm not sure Jones will still be England Head Coach for the World Cup.

Blut2

The ideas of 7+ week 16 team competitions are very very unlikely to happen with how tight the calendars are already. None of the domestic leagues are going to agree to losing the 5+ games a season that would be required.

At most I could see the URC, T14, Premiership and Super rugby winners all playing each other once in a 3 week mini season. Thats reasonably fair, would only be the best teams/league winners so easy to market, and could probably be squeezed into the calendar.

Yeah_Right

@Blut2 I agree that it should be small but the problem with it being just the winners of the domestic competitions is it could mean the European champions aren't there. Also I imagine that SR will want more than one representative so that they get a bigger slice of the pie. Australia will probably want a guaranteed place as well.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944220#Comment_119944220

I'm seeing a lot of defenders of Eddie Jones around and its pretty baffling, I don't see how his England team can be considered anything other than underachieving. Writing off multiple years of rugby under the guise of planning for a world cup is nonsense too, and surely pretty bad for the financials.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944613#Comment_119944613

Eddie has done a good job of convincing the English media (up to now anyway) and possibly the RFU that no rugby matters except for the Rugby World Cup, and equally that his development of the squad necessitates tinkering the line up frequently, an inevitable by-product of which is losing 6N games and Autumn Internationals etc, all because he managed to do that last time out.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944354#Comment_119944354

The Aussies could very well argue that but then the Saffers, Scots, Welsh, and Italians would justifiably argue the same. Which would very quickly dilute the quality of the teams and end up with a 9 team tournament (SA, Sco, Wal, Ita, Ire, Eng, Fra, Aus, NZ) which would be unworkable due to the number of games required.

Not including the European champions would probably be seen as a good thing by the leagues - only having the league winners qualifying would help rebalance some focus away from the Heineken cup at the tail end of the season. Leinster's more relaxed attitude to the league in recent years when they were far more focused on winning in Europe probably wouldn't happen for example.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944354#Comment_119944354

Take the European champion plus the URC, Premiership and Top 14 Champions (or runner up if they've already qualified via The EC ) and then 4 from Southern Hemisphere - 1 each from Australia and NZ and the next best 2.

8 teams played as a straight knockout cup over 3 weekends.

sydthebeat

If it's been sold as a club "world cup" then any reason most of us are excluding the winners of the japanese league?

There is a large viewing public there that competition organisers would like to target

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944956#Comment_119944956

Fair point - The perception, which may be outdated and/or inaccurate is that the Japanese league isn't at the same level at the other Pro-leagues.

Do those teams ever play any Super Rugby teams , even in pre-season to get a feel for the level they are at?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945109#Comment_119945109

yes they do, rare so far but id imagine this will get more popular:

https://reds.rugby/news/queensland-reds-announce-team-for-saitama-panasonic-wild-knights-clash-2022111

reds won 55 - 30 btw

highlanders played the wild knights previously too IIRC

stephen_n

Wasn’t the club World Cup being mooted as once every 4 years. Where it would replace the group stages of the European Cup. Can’t see why ERC would agree to that unless their champion was involved. More so unless they were gaining revenue from it.