General Rugby Discussion 3

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120260592#Comment_120260592

Its a much easier fight to have if there is success and players coming through, the clubs have clearly not been focused on developing players because of a number of reasons- budgets, the schools are not feeding decent players into the academy.

Their 60 cap rule was and is a joke.

The entirety of welsh rugby needs a rethink, it needs to admit defeat and start with the school and academy structures in the clubs

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120260592#Comment_120260592

Wasn't there some furor at the time precisely because Shannon wanted to be picked to play in the HC?

jacothelad

It would be wildly inappropriate for our players to support our playing opponents in striking in the competition in which huge sums of money are available for success.

Cosmo Kramer

Were the Irish provinces really seen as a step up from the clubs in the amateur era - I'd say yes in some ways and no in others. There would have been an honour associated with being called up to the provincial side based on club form, but apart from the odd test against a touring SH team or whatever, the AIL was where most of the focus was at that time.

It was fairly standard for an AIL game to be shown live on RTE on Sports Stadium on a Saturday afternoon - St Mary's v Shannon or whatever. I can't remember the interpros ever being televised in the amateur era, I used to check the results in the Irish Independent because those games received so little coverage at the time.

I'm fairly sure some of the bigger clubs did make a play to be the Irish representatives in European competition, rather than the provinces, at the start of the professional era. It didn't really get very far and a quick decision was taken to run with the provinces instead. Whereas the Welsh were still sending out poor old Caerphilly for 70 point beatings years later because they tried to run about nine pro teams initially.

The Irish clubs definitely got screwed over a bit with the switch of focus to the provinces in the 90s. But it had to happen or we'd probably be in a similar mess to what Wales are in now. I don't think it's true to suggest that running with the provinces was a formality though, it was a decision that had to be taken and would have upset a lot of people at the time. But it was clearly the correct one.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262293#Comment_120262293

AIL only started in 1990 so we only had 5 years of it before game went pro. Provincial scene was seen as step up but there was only 3 games a year bar the occasional touring side coming over.

I dont think the irish clubs got screwed over with switch to focus on 90s. It was quite gradual as the provinces were only playing 12 or so games a year between 6 interpros and 6 european games so clubs still had lot of games with access to their internationals. Anthony Foley played all Munster games and still was able to play all 48 of their games in their 4 in a row AIL titles.

stephen_n

Provincial was a step up from club both before and after the AIL came into being. Club form got you picked for your province and provincial form got you selected for Ireland. I don’t think there was anyone who went straight to international based on club form at any stage.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248024#Comment_120248024

To be honest - I think it’s naive in the extreme to think similar sums aren’t washing around in Irish rugby as well. The key difference is that the IRFU take a very hard line on payments to players via Reg 6, and that forces all of the boot money type payments to happen indirectly. Typically it’s a sponsor or an alickadoo paying for accommodation, or providing a job that a player never has to actually show up to, or just stumping up some cash.

But it means that IRFU money never directly goes to pay this type of stuff, which means they can turn a blind eye and avoid diverting crazy money to clubs at the expense of development pathways and the expense of the professional game.

OldRio

250 pounds a match? Good grief.

https://twitter.com/thepaulwilliams/status/1627419959444774912?s=20

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263282#Comment_120263282

I may be naive but I don't believe that any J1 players are being paid in Ireland. Not by sponsors or anyone else.

I'm sure there are some in the AIL getting rewards from sponsors and have jobs set up for them by blazers or whatever. Thats the top tier of amateur rugby in Ireland and as such its limited. In Wales I here anecdotally that when the J5 equivalents are short on players the coach pulls out money and tries to bribe players into playing.

Not to mention the point you raise about direct vs indirect.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263282#Comment_120263282

I've been involved in multiple clubs in Ireland and I've never once heard of anything like that happening for J1 or J2 level. Maybe it happens at AIL level, but I'd be quite confident players aren't getting bribed with full time jobs to line out for the seconds of random clubs.

The problem in Wales like CIARAN_BOYLE mentions is how prevalent the boot money is. Its endemic throughout their system, down to comparatively very low levels. And its directly from WRU funds.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263350#Comment_120263350

There is most certainly players in junior 1 being paid. certainly is J1 players in the 4 qualifying leagues in all provinces getting €€€€. Down the grades no unlikely but J1 certainly.

Captain_Crash

I’ve seen players getting paid (rewarded maybe a better word) as low down as J3 but from my experience it’s never been monetary, it was things like a car with the tax and insurance paid for the season. One team I played with we had two lads came from Oz who were given makey uppy jobs and had their rent paid etc. now wether that was from a suits pocket or directed from IRFU funding I dunno, but that’s what I’ve seen in the past.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263495#Comment_120263495

There's plenty of clubs who have their first XV playing at J1 level, have aspirations of AIL promotion, and aren't averse to using a few € to plug any perceived gaps in their squad.

Leinster 1A in particular always has a couple of clubs where it isn't exactly subtle

Clegg

Shows you the damage the WRU has done to the regions. Joe Hawkins is one of the biggest young talents in Welsh rugby. Only 20 years old, made his Ospreys debut at 18 and has three Welsh caps already. But he feels his future would be more sound in a different country. As things stand he is now no longer eligible to be capped.

https://twitter.com/IlltudDafydd/status/1627655484319694850?t=M72_429EB8shxGQP2yvVSQ&s=09

Blut2

Theres a big article in The Currency today about the WRU's spending. Its paywalled, but posted here in full:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/1177wog/the_wru_takes_in_as_much_money_as_the_irfu_why/

One highlight that sums up the mess well:

"The WRU spends much more heavily than the IRFU on overheads. The IRFU spent €11.5 million on administration, marketing and support in 2022. Across the categories of business and administration, direct costs and hospitality costs, the WRU spent €28.6 million. On overheads and the amateur game, the WRU pent €23 million more than the IRFU last year. This is almost exactly the amount the IRFU outspent the WRU on the pro game."

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266755#Comment_120266755

It all makes sense how much they are spending on the amateur game when you see how the WRU is structured and run by nominees from the amateur clubs.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263282#Comment_120263282

The absolutely key difference between the two countries is that in Ireland any money received from the IRFU needs to be accounted for and documented.

The IRFU will grant/loan a club money for a specific "capital" expenditure - New floodlights , pitches, showers or scrummaging machine , that kind of thing. They won't give a club money for day to day expenses.

If a club is giving a player coach or anybody else a few quid , then that is coming out of club money raised via fund-raising etc.

Now , you could make the argument that the IRFU money frees up the sponsorship funding for paying players , but Clubs aren't getting that money every year. They have to apply for a specific thing and the IRFU can give them a grant or a low cost loan as a once off.

It's my understanding that clubs in Wales receive an annual amount from the WRU to spend as they wish and they currently choose to spend it on boot money instead of paying for development officers or funding academies or things like that.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269106#Comment_120269106

Is there any wonder why it is this way when those running the WRU are nominated solely by the amateur clubs completely bypassing the professional regions?

It looks like the WRU have successfully bullied the players into some form of agreement.

It would have been utterly disastrous in the short term had they actually gone on strike, but it's hard not to feel that they're just kicking the can down the road and arguably actually exacerbating their existing problems by going down this 6-year Project Reset path.

Welsh Rugby needs absolute root and branch fundamental reform, with the whole thing ripped up and reassessed.

EDIT: or maybe not done and dusted? Gatland was going to announce the team early today (was announced this morning), conveniently just like he announced his team 48 hours early against us to deflect headlines away from the misogyny scandal engulfing Welsh rugby, but they've now cancelled the announcement and instead called a press conference for 12:30.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269505#Comment_120269505

Are you sure? They have said they wont be announcing a team today meaning things are very much still uncertain.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269519#Comment_120269519

Sorry I edited my post after originally posting when i spotted they'd cancelled the team announcement.

Blut2

Its not only not resolved, it seems to be escalating. Theres talk now of the players striking for the regions as well if things aren't resolved by the end of this month:

"Welsh rugby is facing the prospect of two player strikes in the coming weeks.

Wales squad players have demanded action on contentious issues by Wednesday, 22 February with their Six Nations game against England three days later at stake.

Now Welsh players' body chairman Ashton Hewitt says strikes at the nation's regions are a "definite" possibility.

He says "striking for every player in Wales" is not off the table if a formal deal is not in place by 28 February."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/64707183

sydthebeat

https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/former-ireland-lock-jeremy-davidson-named-new-castres-head-coach/650059

Former Ireland second row Davidson was fired by bottom of the table Brive in December and returns to Castres where he spent three years as a player and two seasons as defence coach.

Davidson steered Brive to promotion from ProD2 during his first season in charge and kept them up for the next three seasons.

Davidson replaces Pierre-Henry Broncan at Castres, with the 2021/22 runners-up currently sitting 11th in the table.

salmocab

It seems that Welsh rugby is being run by idiots and people in it for themselves. That’s a dangerous combination

Brief_Lives

IS that welsh press conference live, online... Wales onloine just have updates...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269659#Comment_120269659

It's started now.

Update seems to be no real update. Gatland doesn't know, think's game will go ahead, meetings happening, expects to announce team on Thursday.

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269769#Comment_120269769

probably the key points here:

Brief_Lives

ouch

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269106#Comment_120269106

There’s a couple of small annual grants from the IRFU to clubs that are regular enough (coaching grant, participation grants etc.) but that’s only a few k per club per year.

Theres not much directly from the union by way of capital grants, it’s typically Sports Ireland funding which gets distributed though the union, and comes with Sports Ireland conditions like you’ve outlined.

The main way the IRFU funds clubs is via international ticket allocations - allowing clubs to attract sponsors via the guarantee of tickets; and the annual YCYC draw

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266219#Comment_120266219

Is that the same rule that doesnt apply to reecezammit?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270275#Comment_120270275

Yeah grants will come from the county councils/local sports partnerships/department of sport and the sports capital grant which covers equipment as well

Wouldnt say IRFU main funding for clubs is through tickets but paying some of costs of development officers etc and then as uoi say YCYC. I still dont understand why some clubs dont sell these tickets when you get to keep profits from it and IRFU put up some excellent prizes for it

Blut2

My club made about 10,000euro this year from YCYC, its great easy money. I'm surprised any club doesn't take part, I can't really see any reason why they wouldn't. Is it just down to laziness?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270742#Comment_120270742

Yeah not getting enough or any people to sell tickets/organize that.

sydthebeat

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2002/mar/14/sixnationsrugby2002.rugbyunion1

interesting article from 21 year ago !!!

Wales players threaten strike at Twickenham

The Wales squad, entering the dispute between their clubs and the Welsh Rugby Union over the future of the professional game, are threatening to go on strike on Saturday week when they are due to play England at Twickenham.

Six clubs - Llanelli, Swansea, Newport, Pontypridd, Bridgend and Cardiff - had rejected the idea of pulling their players out of the match, deciding instead to hold back the threat until next month's international against Scotland in Cardiff. They want the WRU to improve its funding to at least £1.5m a year and reduce the number of professional clubs from nine to six. The union's general committee is meeting tonight to discuss the issue.

and this one

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2002/mar/23/sixnationsrugby2002.rugbyunion

Signs of strife were everywhere as those inside the game debated the means by which it might recover success and dignity. A man who put more than £1m into a senior rugby club shook his head at the memory of his angry ejection from a rival ground a few nights earlier. A new man at the helm of the national team, a New Zealander, pondered the task of motivating a group of players who had been on the brink of withdrawing their labour only days earlier. Questions were asked about why those players were paid huge bonuses not just for winning but for losing. And on a television news programme, the beleaguered chairman of the Welsh Rugby Union was denying the latest list of accusations, including a claim that he concealed the true nature of the deal to build the debt-ridden Millennium Stadium.

some of the correlations are eerie

Yeah_Right

Excuse the ignorance but what is YCYC?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271075#Comment_120271075

your club, your country

https://www.irishrugby.ie/running-your-club/club-funding/your-club-your-country/

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271075#Comment_120271075

Draw created by IRFU. IRFU and their partners provide prizes. All tickets income sold by clubs kept by clubs

salmocab

The YCYC is a great initiative, I wonder do some clubs not really push it because they have so many draws etc going on that it’s going back to the same well repeatedly. You can only tap the same people up so many times.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271274#Comment_120271274

Yeah i would say thats part of it. Some clubs run lottos, split the buckets etc and get enough from them that they can nearly run everything in club from them so may not need to push the YCYC

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271274#Comment_120271274

That is a massive part of it.

It's also a timing thing , the YCYC sales time period is also around the same time the clubs are asking for subscriptions to be paid, which is the same time that people are handing out for School/College for their kids etc.

It's a great initiative from the Union , but not every club can truly leverage it.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270753#Comment_120270753

We mostly just ask the players to try and sell a few each to themselves/their friends/their family, no huge central effort. Seems to do the job well enough.

Strand1970

Local club asks every member to sell 2 tickets each, that nearly gets us up to the max 10k. Really depends on the size of the clubs membership. iit's a tough ask going back to the same people a few times a year.

VinLieger

Apparently as of last night the PRB still hadnt even told the players what time todays extraordinary meeting is at, cannot see the match going ahead with the way things currently look.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273928#Comment_120273928

It's just utterly shambolic from start to finish.

I mean this is a "nothing else matters , get this sorted right NOW" event and they can't even arrange a time to meet????

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120274065#Comment_120274065

the unsaid truth here is that the WRU actively want a region to financially collapse so they can remove them from the books.

the only thing right now that can save welsh rugby is for the WRU to disband and two new governing bodies created, one for the pro game an one from the amateur. The amateur game needs to stay full amateur an become a lot more self funding. The pro game needs to solidify its funding and budget and be run by proper business professionals and not county councillors and alikadoos from the amateur game.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120274222#Comment_120274222

Indeed there's no point trying to emulate our system as the regions just don't have the grassroots fan buy in that will work its way up via club and then regional boards to then work for the WRU that will benefit the professional game.

Jump_In_Jack

Do we have any Welsh posters in the house? @penybont exile Would you have any insights to add?

I'm most curious about what kind of blueprint would a pragmatic outsider be able to suggest, and what are the roadblocks to engineering a solution out of what's there now?

Cheers

minitrue

You can't help but be impressed that the WRU are such a shambles that they already have a new fiasco which seems to have nearly everyone forgetting they've only just switched CEO to try and take the heat out of the last unresolved debacle.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120274928#Comment_120274928

ah but they banned "delilah"..... :D

VinLieger

So looks like the PRB are presenting the newest proposal to all 200 professional welsh players at 3pm, id expect players to be at the very least texting journos if not outright tweeting during it if it doesnt go well.