General Rugby Discussion 3

ScissorPaperRock

Irish Times reporting that there's talk of a club 'world cup' beginning in 2028. My initial reaction is that it would be pretty cool to see European sides come up against the NZ franchises.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/11/08/club-world-cup-in-rugby-could-take-place-in-2028/

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345365#Comment_121345365

The 42 are reporting that the second half of Champions Cup games would be used as a club world cup with the 1st half of games being a pool stage for European clubs. No word on pool stages for Super Rugby or Japanese clubs. So effectively there would be no EPCR knockouts that year

Burkie1203

Always thought stuart hogg was a full back, turns out he really belongs on the middle of the front row !!!

pickarooney

Blair Kinghorn off to Toulouse next month to replace Jaminet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121397825#Comment_121397825

Bizarre move - Jaminet is leaving because of a lack of game time given they have Ramos, Capuozzo and Mallia as full backs.

Maybe they see him as a 10, but he's never looked too convincing playing there IMO.

pickarooney

Either he or Ramos will probably play 10 in the short term, Capuozzo plays wing mostly.

I would have thought a 9 was more urgent though.

OldRio

I see there are rumours around the TV coverage of the 6 nations and this new World league. The Times are reporting coverage 'might' be going behind a pay wall. Obviously depending on how much it is valued in cash terms to the broadcasters.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399455#Comment_121399455

Hopefully that's just the UK rights and RTE/VM can continue with the Irish rights.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399649#Comment_121399649

Hopefully it's nothing! You'd think anyone with a brain would see what happened with Cricket in the UK after it went behind a paywall.

The 6N occupies a slot in the calendar with a level of coverage that pretty much every other sport on the planet would die for. This would be monumentally stupid.

Dave_The_Sheep

This would be monumentally stupid.

So it's pretty much guaranteed huh?

Quin_Dub

Is the Six Nations not one of the "Designated events" that can't be removed from Terrestrial TV in the UK ??

**Actually - According to this , it can be on Pay TV but only if delayed broadcast and highlights are FTA.

awec

The Six nations isn't protected in Ireland either, the only rugby games that are are Ireland games at the RWC.

But I am fairly sure if there was a genuine chance of them going behind a paywall the government of the day would protect them fairly hastily. They were going to do it before except the rights ended up staying FTA anyway.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400086#Comment_121400086

I would have thought the same about GAA but I didn't happen, afaik.

sprucemoose

rumours over here that Toronto Arrows are ceasing operations, though nothing official yet. not a good sign for the MLR if yet another team is gone

OldRio

I see Owen Farrell has stepped down from International Rugby. He mentions prioritising his and his family's mental health.

Some things are much more important than sport. Good luck to the guy.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433549#Comment_121433549

Nice lad by all accounts but a little ironic that, having multiple bans for head high tackles, he's prioritising his mental health.

Super player & competitor, but a poor role model for discipline.

pickarooney

Not seeing the irony at all, to be honest

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433549#Comment_121433549

Seems like he's "stepping away" rather than "stepping down" as it were.

Going to sit out the 6N's this year and then potentially return at a later date.

Even though he's relatively young , he's been at the highest level since he was 19/20 years old so not surprised he's feeling a bit burnt out.

Hopefully the extra free time does him good.

Pete_Cavan

During the Eng SA semi they showed a replay of Farrells reaction to a grubber he put through, if memory serves it hit a SA player before going into touch in the SA 22. He roared intensely like they had scored the match winning try with the clock in the red. I remember thinking that this "celebrating the small wins" thing that England have going on can't be good for your mental health. It seems to be thing with that English squad, commentators mentioned it at least once during the WC. Ben Earl is obviously a big exponent of it.

A game is already a rollcoaster of emotions without getting carried away with luckily winning a line out in the opposition 22. It must be extremely difficult getting so excited about small wins only to ultimately lose the game. I thought sports psychology was all about staying as calm and emotionally stable as possible, not expending emotional energy on something which has already happened, etc. With getting a line out with good field position, the focus should immediately but on the next play, selecting your play and then executing that.

Also, there's the whole troughs being as low as your peaks are high idea, so if you get overly excited about something going your way, do you get crushed when something goes against you? I wondered to myself at the time about the psychological prep they were getting and if "celebrating the small wins" was a tactic for them.

Not saying this is why Farrell is "stepping away" from International Rugby, just some thoughts I had at the time which seem a little more relevant now. He might just be a bit jaded after giving so much to rugby for so long and want to spend more time with his young family and less in international camp.

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433614#Comment_121433614

You're not really understanding this.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434676#Comment_121434676

Excellent post.

Also interesting that he'll continue with Sarries as normal. So it's a break from the England camp & all it's involvements that he prefers.

Podge_irl

Farrell gets an unbelievable amount of crap from English fans and media who are desperate to anoint his successor. I don't think it is necessary to read much more into it than the international team and the environment around it is somewhat toxic at the moment.

Burkie1203

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-67594313

...

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121443277#Comment_121443277

Really depressing stuff.I just read about Andrew Coombs who's only 39 and has been diagnosed with dementia earlier this year.

You do wonder will rugby be able to survive this as it has neither the finances or cultural pull that American football has which has so far been able to somewhat quiet this issue and continue on close to normal at professional level.

Why would parents allow their kids to get involved in a dangerous sport like Rugby when there are so many other safe sports they can play , it'll probably mean going forward players will have to sign waivers that they understand the explicit risk of the sport and can't hold the sport responsible if they have consequences further on.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455483#Comment_121455483

whether rugby will "survive" this or not will be very much down to whether it can be proven that those in rugby authority knowingly neglected the welfare of players by either asking players to do things they knew could cause injury, or kept information from players which would have better informed them of the risks in playing.

the big, big difference between NFL and rugby is NFL has been professional since 1920, whereas rugby only went professional initially in 1995

there was an active cover-up by NFL on these issues, which made them liable.

as to why a parent would allow their child play rugby ahead of other "safer" sports... well that a question youd have to put to the parents who are bring their kids to rugby in ever increasing numbers. Maybe its the core values of respect, fun and personal growth that rugby espouses which is the attraction.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457220#Comment_121457220

The issue is the powers that be in rugby had really clear / directly comparable evidence from the NFL of the danger of concussions. Bennet Omalu published his work in 2002, by 2011 NFL class action lawsuits were going on, it was really common knowledge. But HIAs only became permanent law in rugby in August 2015, very very late.

Rugby will likely have to further refine tackling to make it less unsafe, and in all likelihood probably reform the game to make players smaller, to help reduce risk. Either weights limits for each position, or fewer subs, or just fewer players on the field (get rid of both flankers possibly). Anything to help reduces the physics of the collisions.

Smaller players will at least make the game more exciting to watch for spectators too at least - more Shane Williams, less George North.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457314#Comment_121457314

Or make the standard pitch 20 metres wider

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457220#Comment_121457220

All those core values of Rugby you can get from other sports though.I imagine the supposed life lesson you get from Rugby can be gotten from other safer sports, the NFL said the same nonsense about the lessons Gridiron teaches people aswell and that's proven to a complete crock of s**t . I think most parents take their kids to sports as a form of babysitting/outdoor activity not because of supposed life lessons that a particular sport teaches , that's just a load of PR nonsense Rugby likes to sell to gullible idiots.I doubt the supposed life lessons are worthwhile if you end up with long term negative consequences from a hobby.

Rugby had a directly comparable sport in American Football and knew about the issues it had and yet decided to let the game get more and more violent with bigger and bigger collisions over the past 15 years.

sydthebeat

that's just a load of PR nonsense Rugby likes to sell to gullible idiots

posting something like that in the rugby forum is simply trolling.

your posts add up to nothing more than old man shouting at clouds. If you dont like rugby, dont watch rugby and dont appreciate rugby, then youre not posting from an area of informed opinion, but just negative ignorance.

if world rugby are deemed negligent, and there is major outfall from itk, so be it.

personally id prefer to wait until the outcome of any such actions before considering the ranting and raving youre doing.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457675#Comment_121457675

I watch rugby and I don't believe parents brings their child to rugby because of "values", I don't think sport selection works like that for children. Parents bring kids to whatever is available, convenient and that kids enjoy.

Speaking as a parent of a young child I would have no issue with them playing mini rugby, going through the years of contact-free rugby. But it's less straightforward after that.

Honestly, I'd be lying if I said I was at least a little bit concerned about them playing full contact rugby. The true scale of the concussion issue in this sport is yet to be seen and understood IMO.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457675#Comment_121457675

Not ranting and raving just pointing out the issues the sport faces.

I think someone who thinks rugby has inherently wonderful values that attracts people to it is delusional, it's the type of snobbery I thought went out of the sport years ago.Most people who bring their kids to play sport bring them what is convenient, kids sport is generally seen by 90% of parents as an activity/form of babysitting.

You genuinely seem to be getting overly defensive about this issue.Loads of famous players from the near past appear to be suffering issues from playing the sport, whether there is negligence or not on behalf of World Rugby it does indicate an unnecessary degree of danger to the sport that needs to be reduced.

My sister has played rugby at a high level so I'm a little concerned about the potential impact it could have on her in the future, although the womens game hasn't the level of collisions the mens has so hopefully she won't be impacted.

Captain_Crash

I’ll speak as someone who played the sport for 24 years (2 during Covid so 22 years playing regular games). I don’t think I ever once set foot on a pitch without knowing the risks posed. But I’ll go so far to say the biggest risk to me was never head contact…. And I still think the risk of head injury is comparatively low Make of that what you will.

I had a number of concussions over the years and the ones I can still recall weren't from the big hits or reckless play… they were from innocuous incidents nearly all of which happened in training!

I often think back to that hit from Lawes on Plisson back in ‘16 or thereabouts… there is no way in hell that hit didn’t cause a concussion and maybe some longer lasting damage, but even with todays laws, it’s still a legal hit. If rugby wants to limit head injuries and make the game safer, I don’t think the current direction is the right way to go! I’d be more about limiting contact sessions in training, acknowledging the game has risks and not punishing perfectly good but slightly mistimed hits, take the pressure of perfection away from players and they’ll thrive!

Maybe I’m waffling, maybe my views are obsolete or maybe I’m just talking boll*x, but I love rugby and don’t want it to disappear!

Disclaimer, my son did play rugby but didn’t like it so quit! I’d have no issue with him continuing to play if he chose to! He does karting now, an arguably more dangerous past time and costs me a bloody fortune🤷🏻‍♂️

Captain_Crash

I’ve only realised how long that was…. I apologise lol!

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457675#Comment_121457675

I played rugby in school, and throughout my 20s at a club. I follow rugby to this day every week, and regularly attend both Ireland and Leinster games. I love the sport.

But I can still readily admit there were absolutely huge mistakes made at the top level in the period from about 2005-2015 when the game was long professionalised, when players were bigger/stronger/faster, and when knowledge about the dangers of concussions was already out there. And that the efforts made belatedly since 2015 to mitigate this danger still haven't full done so.

I'd also fully agree with awec, and so would any of my rugby loving friends that I've talked to about this, that if the game continues as it is I'd have serious reservations about a child of mine playing full contact rugby in his teens. Minis, and tag, absolutely. But the risks of full contact are getting more well known by the day, and thats not going to be good for player numbers long term. The "core values of respect, fun and personal growth" can be attained through playing plenty of other team sports at a decent level, with far less risk of permanent brain damage.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457611#Comment_121457611

One of my kids played in a high school invitational match a couple of weeks ago here in Northern California. There's an Aussie touring team coming so this was a match between a large group of players selected as a panel in prep for the tourists. 2 lads clashed heads in a tackle, both tackling players who swung around the attacker and slammed into each other. One didn't get up and displayed Decerebrate posture which was scary. Ambulance, fire engine and 30 minutes of the players doing drills on the next pitch over as this lad was tended to and removed to hospital. It was a completely innocuous and legal tackle, the definition of a rugby incident that's very hard to legislate out of the game, but with potentially devastating consequences. If it was my kid I don't know if I'd ever let him back on a rugby pitch, yet he'll play most weekends for the next 5 months. These are all big enough lads, 16-18 year olds, but size often belies the force that different players bring to contact. Its hard to see how these kinds of brain injuries are eliminated from the game, even with lowered tackle heights, etc.

I guess over here a lot of the players also play American football which also delivers serious injuries and head injuries so the families are somewhat used to it or at least factor it into their expectations. Attracting newer players does not seem to be a difficulty a the moment. The lower age groups are well attended. I coached an open day recently and there were about 100 kids who'd never played before, maybe half of them with a parent/grandparent who played.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121457825#Comment_121457825

From coaching minis and being around parents and kids at the club, kids tend to be brought to rugby training because

- their father/brother/sister plays

- the football club is full of arseholes

- the kid has too much unchannelled aggression

- he/she watches it on telly and wants to give it a go

- they've tried every other sport

Some of them you could spin as rugby values, some are clearly just getting the kid out of the house for a couple of hours

Blut2

Football clubs being full of arseholes is an underapreciated major recruitment tool for the sport of rugby in Dublin.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459360#Comment_121459360

Have been involved in one way or another in football, GAA and rugby clubs over the last 15 years.

Absolutely no difference in the decency of those involved in my experience whether it's rugby in Dublin 4 or a football game in East Wall.

GAA and rugby tend to be better organised. More community based as they are bigger and new team are highly unlikely to appear in their area to dilute membership. They have a significant foothold in the community with clubhouses etc. But they also tend to put far more pressure on members for attendance, funding, time etc. which drives as many away as it brings people in.

Blut2

Maybe its changed recently, but that absolutely wasn't my experience, or the experience of plenty of lads I know, growing up. Football clubs were pretty consistently run terribly/incompetently by idiots with huge egos. The FAI was a shitshow all the way from grassroots to the very top.

salmocab

I coach both soccer and rugby, the lads I coach with and the parents are much the same however whilst some of the stuff the rugby club does drives me nuts the soccer club and even the leagues are just a mess. Too many egos because they played a high level of football or watched man utd for years so know how kids should be coached.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426299#Comment_121426299

rugby new york are gone now too. mlr not looking good

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/ChristypDoran/status/1732512608165470529?t=sTQojE_H26M_023y2So0fQ&s=19

...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465026#Comment_121465026

That’s a shame - he was an incredible player to watch.

Exclamation Marc

This is great news.

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/british-and-irish-lions-to-play-in-aviva-stadium-in-2025/

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465766#Comment_121465766

Probably the most competitive game of the tour too

Ben Bailey

From Robert Kitson in The Guardian newspaper today ;

"Check out the following list of names in action over the weekend: Ardie Savea, Beauden Barrett, Sam Cane, Richie Mo’unga, Aaron Smith, Brodie Retallick, Shannon Frizell, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Faf de Klerk, Damian de Allende, Cheslin Kolbe and Franco Mostert. A few short weeks ago they were all starting in the Rugby World Cup final in Paris. But where are they now? Here’s a clue: none were involved in the opening round of the Champions Cup.

On that same theme, here’s a supplementary quiz question. Which of the following rugby matches attracted a bigger crowd over the weekend? Was it: a) Racing 92 v Harlequins; b) La Rochelle v Leinster; c) Bulls v Saracens; or d) Kubota Spears Funabashi Tokyo Bay v Tokyo Sungoliath? Let’s just say Europe’s leading clubs and their flagship cross-border tournament are by no means the only show in town these days.

Because the respective answers are Japan and d). No fewer than 18,500 people turned up for the pick of the opening‑round games in Japan Rugby League One (JRLO), compared to fewer than 10,000 in Racing’s futuristic Parisian stadium."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121486251#Comment_121486251

It's definitely a smart play for NZ and SA to allow their best players to feather the pension pot and take a couple of seasons off from the battering of elite level rugby in Japan, but on the second point - I don't think the 18,500 stat is overly impressive or daunting in the grand scheme of things.

There was a larger crowd in Thomond for Munster-Bayonne. If Leinster-La Rochelle was in the Aviva, there would have been 50k at it.

Burkie1203

Joe Schmidt rumoured to be Australia's new head coach

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121487854#Comment_121487854

It'll be the least shocking move if so, he's the ideal candidate for them. My guess is that he's going to be more than just a head coach, with responsibilities up and down the levels of Aussie Rugby, they really need a proper rethink of their system, and I genuinely can't think of anyone better than Joe for that.

ongarite

Eddie Jones confirmed as Japan coach.

Can't see that as a good move for either party TBH