General Rugby Discussion 3

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122212567#Comment_122212567

Their stadiums have far more fans in them each week than almost any other teams in Europe. Did you miss the chart showing that above?

They just happen to also play in very large capacity stadiums so people who apparently don't know much about the league get confused by the optics easily.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122213292#Comment_122213292

If the SA public bought into it the stadium would be packed, or near full similar to Currie cup , but blame it on optics and pretend all perfect so.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215161#Comment_122215161

They do buy into it! The Ave attendance in SA shows that!! Don’t forget also that SA is a massive country! Provincial fans aren’t all in the cities that the stadiums are in! You’ll have fans who are hours from Durban for whom The Sharks are still the local team but they can’t get to games often! One of the reasons also that the TV money is massive for them too… cause the viewing numbers are huge!

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215161#Comment_122215161

They have the 2nd, 6th and 8th highest attendances of the 26 teams in the chart…

Burkie1203

...

Hogg Off to Montpellier

https://x.com/jaredwright17/status/1797681178465452472?t=ix505tcc69qZg14QD7Vz-g&s=19

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122216470#Comment_122216470

His ex wife will be pleased, stick an attachment order to his salary.

Stanley 1

Would think the ticket prices are a hell of a lot cheaper

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122216617#Comment_122216617

He can compare notes with Haouas who's due back to Montpelier next season.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122210711#Comment_122210711

The 6 Nations and Tri-Nations didn't become the powerhouses they are today by relying on bigger nations to do the heavy lifting on the way. Spain and Portugal could easily muster up a 10 team club league, let them whack it out of each other and see how they do in Europe in a few years

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122220468#Comment_122220468

The way you go on and have posted on this before will never see the game/sport grow. You can't just say let the next tier close the gap then we will play them. You have to help these sides/countries and it will be better for us in the medium and long term

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122220572#Comment_122220572

We will be helping these sides through Champions/challenge cup though

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221159#Comment_122221159

But those countries and Georgia and many others need far more games, assistance in international games from 6 nations and rugby championship sides

Ben Bailey

Maybe part of the process of growing the game is to establish relationships between clubs in Tier 1, Tier 2 & Tier 3 unions. Have a number of players train & play (on a limited basis) with these related clubs. I'm not advocating for a 'feeder club' system as this primarily benefits the stronger clubs. Fairly strict controls would be required in order to avoid clubs cherry picking from weaker clubs.

(Maybe Leinster & Toulouse could link up 😁)

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221548#Comment_122221548

They really don't. What they need in the main is competitions against themselves at both club and international level, then secondary against the more established clubs.

The World Cup and EPCR competitions can give their teams a chance at what you describe but on the secondary basis. Bringing them into a 6N/URC/T14/EP competition where they camp down at the bottom of the table for the season does no favours for either them or the competitions

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221895#Comment_122221895

Of course they do. They play sides at their own level enough. How can they close the gap at international level if they only play top sides every 4 years. Theyneed regular tests against the 6 national and rugby championships sides

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222313#Comment_122222313

The reality is though that even in those games they aren't playing anything like the actual 6N or Rugby championship sides , they are playing against 2nd teams at best , and still losing comfortably.

Formalising an annual summer tournament where the Tier 1 teams send development squads and teams like Georgia, Portugal etc. send their full squads would probably be the better option in the short to medium term.

pixelburp

European Tier 2 rugby & getting it to Tier 1 standard has to be one of the larger "chicken and egg" scenarios in top level sport; how do you square the cirlce, especially when Tier 1 has basically pulled the ladder up at every juncture? Something would need to give but there's no signs anyone in any hall of power are interested enough.

Like Italy and Argentina it'll take repeated shocks to force the conversation on a case-by-case, but has the quality gap shortened or lengthened between the tiers?

Mal-Adjusted

When the English clubs killed the Heineken cup, didn't they promise a third tier club competition for developing nations? Whatever happened to that or was it just lies?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222313#Comment_122222313

I've never seen a Spanish or Portuguese club in EPCR action?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222635#Comment_122222635

You mean the Continental Shield? It lasted one season. Before interest from the clubs involved fell apart

You now have the Super Cup for the last 3 seasons but being a cup competition spread across numerous countries, with all countries only having one club, they lack regular matches or any real rival mentality

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222711#Comment_122222711

YoYou really haven't a clue do you. It wasn't a lack of interest in the competing countries. It was how teams were entered, format of competition/time of season it was played etc

The only way the next tier down improve is by playing the top sides often. If they just play themselves they won't improve

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222737#Comment_122222737

Yeah I'm not sure a Toulouse V Black Lion game being played regularly would be much good for either club

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222769#Comment_122222769

By top I meant tip tier just like internationally Georgia, Romania as well as sides outside Europe be it Pacific Islands, Chile or whoever else need far more opportunities to play top tier sides. Even 2nd string but they need test matches against top countries otherwise they will never improve

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222487#Comment_122222487

Like the old Churchill Cup, which I thought was great. Alas it didn't last.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223006#Comment_122223006

You mean only concentrate on national teams and we skip the club game completely in these countries? That simply won't work. Strong national teams need strong clubs underneath them to support player development and grow interest in the game for regular people

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223070#Comment_122223070

Exactly..

Perhaps discreet Northern Hemisphere and Southern Hemisphere editions to get as many as possible involved

Quin_Dub

The challenge at the club level is that these smaller countries don't have enough players to have functional professional club teams.

The players genuinely good enough to play Pro level likely already are playing in France and elsewhere. They couldn't afford to bring those guys back to seed new local pro-teams.

Get them several years of the revenue from more International games against higher profile countries to develop the player base before trying to build out the club game.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223006#Comment_122223006

I know we went round it about the season recently, but in total agreement with you. I'd love to see a Euros comp in Lions years, between 6Ns and REC. Think it would be a great way to have more meaningful games and have something of value to play for.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222648#Comment_122222648

if we're counting the 'old' heineken/amlin system then CR El Salvador played a couple of times. i think they beat an italian team one year

Pete_Cavan

Ideally the URC would add a club from Spain and one from Portugal, with a view to a second from each coming on stream in the future. People will say there are already too many countries involved in URC and there has been a lot of chopping and changing over the years but I think there is also a strong possibility of stagnation without some form of evolution.

The best way for other countries to develop the game is with a pro club and grow from there. Ultimately, they have nowhere to go but URC. It would take a few years but I'm sure a well resourced (union owned and government backed) club in each country. Look at the Jaguars. I can also see two game tours to those countries being popular with travelling fans.

The Welsh look to have peaked in terms of their value so looking at new markets with big growth potential makes sense. Given the problems in the club scene in England and Wales, and some see them in a combined league as a solution, the URC needs to be looking at other markets. Wales will likely drop a pro team at some stage so that gives an opening for one team. If they are jump ship, URC definitely needs something to fill the void.

Clegg

Very depressing that rugby is willing to be used as a sports washing tool for a climate killing, immigrant abusing, slave driving nation.

https://twitter.com/MattHughesMedia/status/1798433791091826893?t=_cnfvA9IC9DKfCSA-nutCw&s=09

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224531#Comment_122224531

Yes that's exactly what the biggest league needs, more teams, perhaps we should expand and double to 32 teams just for good measure?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224590#Comment_122224590

Don't get depressed, get mad.

If we have to shame them, boycott them, blackmail them into a course of action that is not this, then that is what we shall do.

If we decide, today, that this must fail, then the easy bit is taking the steps to make it happen.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224590#Comment_122224590

Grim on so many levels.

Beyond that it will be absolutely crap for fans.

AbusesToilets

Amazing how WR can go from one of the best WCs ever to this garbage. **** everything about this concept

pickarooney

Does anyone want this abomination of a tournament?

hold my beer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224590#Comment_122224590

Yeah they can **** right off with this. Will never go to a game again if this is what it becomes.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224590#Comment_122224590

Parking the ethical problems for a second, that's some cheddar being paid. Of course, this thread having just discussed Tier 2s eternal limbo, it's good timing that the top table will now get even MORE financial clout. The article says it's 6N and SANZAAR getting the money, not WR.

Engaging the ethics again, fúck that. No chance I'm gonna get behind the tournament, now that its business end will be bankrolled by one of those authoritarian héll holes. A lot of what's wrong with the world can be pin pointed to a half dozen kingdoms like this. Sad day for the sport if this goes through and it'll certainly kill my interest in this already ropey tournament.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224592#Comment_122224592

I can only assume that you quoted me by mistake seeing as your post bears no relation to anything that I said.

Neil3030

I suppose the question is, could Ireland stand to be the only Tier 1 nation that's willing to walk away from a cut of 200m every 2 years?

What might it mean to suddenly be down what... Let's say 10m-20m a year (averaging it out) compared to other unions?

The gesture would be noble, but extremely damaging.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225284#Comment_122225284

The answer is no, let's not kid ourselves here.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225212#Comment_122225212

You said

Ideally the URC would add a club from Spain and one from Portugal, with a view to a second from each coming on stream in the future

My point is, why would we stop at 2 from each country, why not double our numbers and expand to 32 teams from across Europe and further afield?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225284#Comment_122225284

At best, there'd be some noise making it seem like options were being considered, consciences examined etc. etc … then surprise surprise they turn around take the Quatari soup in the end.

This is gonna be a massive stain on the sport, and it'll be interesting if fans follow;.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224590#Comment_122224590

Telegraph reporting, pinch of salt needed there. The blowback from fans would be so big I don't think they would.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225284#Comment_122225284

They could, the IRFU are far from broke, I doubt we would be the only T1 nation to walk away as these things always happen in 2's at least.

Presumably they would need to walk away from the nations championship completely. If two Tier 1 nations walked away from the NC would they make 10-20m doing a double-3-game-series together? I think they would

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225749#Comment_122225749

So you just picked a number of 32 teams from unspecified countries out of your hole and are asking me about it. That's not reasonable.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224531#Comment_122224531

And which games exactly would you cut from the already crowded schedule to allow for this?

Or are you just planning to cram in an extra 2-4 games a year to schedules that already compromise player welfare from playing too many games as things stand?

And where is the funding going to come from to send South African (in particular, but also Irish/Scottish etc) teams on expensive tours to Spain and Portugal? Because theres no way TV revenue or gate receipts from those countries will cover that and fund the local teams themselves.

AdamD

The blowback from fans is likely to be very little if we're being honest

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225839#Comment_122225839

How are soccer fans reacting to the take over of the game by Middle Eastern petrocrats? The stuff going on with Man City is a harbinger of a grim future for the game in England, and generally teams and tournaments becoming holding companies and marketing tools for billionaires and kleptocrats has to undermine fans attachments longer term. But maybe not. If soccer can just soak up that money without any loss of legitimacy or popularity, rugby can't be far behind.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226169#Comment_122226169

If the number of teams grows beyond what there currently is, there are different systems which could be considered (pools/conferences, etc.) which wouldn't necessarily increase the number of games.

As I said, if the Welsh decide to throw their lot in with the English, too many teams in URC would not be an issue, the opposite in fact. Where we go from there should that happen needs to be considered.

In terms of funding, costs are likely to continue to rise going forward but how much scope is there to increase revenue to cover this? Rugby is unlike soccer where clubs are king, in rugby the national teams soak up most of the revenue leaving little for club level. If the URC had not expanded by adding SA teams, it would probably be in a worse place than the GP. Given the countries involved in URC, tv deals and commercial sponsorship is naturally limited. Adding new countries, thereby expanding the market and being more attractive to global companies would be good way to increase revenue.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227863#Comment_122227863

While I understand the importance of growing the Tier2 teams, the URC has gone through enough changes. What it needs for the next 4-5 years is stability.