Dublin Bus tables conditional pay offer of 12%

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788549#Comment_117788549

September 2016.

Even if people forgot the date, they definitely had horrible troubles to get to and back to work, schools, colleges etc. It was a very selfish action from the drivers. They basically put the whole city on a halt. I remember well I had to drive my colleagues home that day as I felt so bad having troubles to get a taxi.

Just because someone forgets it doesn't make the situation people had to went through any better.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788513#Comment_117788513

Structurally and strategically it makes a huge difference. Any business gets lazy in any industry when there's no SLA, some sort of agreement, contract between the government or there's no competition. I'm generalising as there are differences in the industries. But DB without a tender is basically a company with a bunch of lazy overprivileged drivers. This has to be stopped and balanced out.

dublin bus who are already competitive anyway, will definitely remain so thankfully.

You keep hammering home the delusion widespread among drivers

DB are not competitive by any stretch of the imagination. In fact the biggest problems DB have in terms of achieving competitiveness, are the drivers themselves.

They block timetable improvements, route adjustments, cost savings etc etc etc

I'd wager DB's trials with autonomous buses will accelerate in the coming years.

As a passenger, I look forward to seeing this happen.

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117789227#Comment_117789227

Lazy? You would tell the child of a bus driver that their dad is lazy because he has to be in bed by early evening to be up at 2.30am for work at 4?

Overprivileged? Because he earns the average industrial wage and might have a car less than 10 years old?

Obviously utopia.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117789766#Comment_117789766

Again, lazy, and for one more reason - too lazy to find another job with more suitable hours, if these don't satisfy.

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117790067#Comment_117790067

The same trolling, sneering attitude would still apply, even if they did suit someone else.

devnull

Just a reminder to all posters that you can have differences of opinions, but differences do not mean free reign to denigrate, troll for responses or make crass generalisations. Let's make this a place where alternative viewpoints are challenged with well constructed, respectful counterpoints. 

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117790147#Comment_117790147

If you have a problem with a post and feel it's trolling, please report it.

Moderator

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117789210#Comment_117789210

5 years ago, a long long time ago really with a lot of actual, huge events since then.

anyway from what i remember having a quick look, it wasn't a selfish but a necessary action in the aim of improving workers rights.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117789227#Comment_117789227

you are factually incorrect, dublin bus drivers are not lazy and over privilaged, that is a disgraceful and untrue comment.

also, given any operators will have a contract stating down to an i and a t how the service must operate, the rest of your comment also doesn't stack up since it ultimately makes no difference to anything structurally or otherwise since the operators can't decide anything in terms of service operation.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117789335#Comment_117789335

i am in no doubt that they are competitive, and will always be so, i have saw nothing to convince me otherwise.

the drivers block things that will cause issues for the operation of the service and increase non-driving down time which needs to be decreased so that the drivers can drive their shift only and then go home, that would happen at any operator if the rosters aren't worked out properly.

trials with autonomous buses will happen but no quicker then they were ever going to happen, and even then there will still be staff for which without them at work will mean no services.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117790067#Comment_117790067

again, not lazy, you are factually wrong.

not up to them to find another job when they like the job but want to make it better for them and future generations, which gives better bang then them simply leaving and the problems not being dealt with.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117790826#Comment_117790826

Ha! Oh, so sweet of them trying to make the job better for future generations. Why then senior drivers don't want to have equal to junior drivers shifts? Seniors want to keep the same "best" shifts, talking about a work life balance! Making me laugh. They know what industry they are working in. Adults but acting like children who's crying for a "lost" candy. Well yeah, public transport in Dublin is long long time forgotten and it's time to start running the buses on a Sunday morning from 6-7am, not 8-9am as previously. It's also time for 24/7 routes (such as 41 and hopefully coming 39A and more).

I'm not saying drivers are not worth the respect or are useless etc etc. No. They are indeed doing a great job and I always try to help them while driving by giving space to make a turn, not blocking the bus stops etc. But I also expect drivers to understand the industry they're working in, understand the passengers' needs and be prepared to work hard for it. I understand currently job is hard due to the ticketing on board, cash... I think passengers can sacrifice here by using a Leap card and upcoming bank card contactless only. No tickets from the drivers, same as in London. Good news it's coming. Bad news - it's going to take time, as lost of other things coming slow in Ireland.

Unfortunately, best for drivers to work as truck/lorry drivers. These shifts have more stable shift pattern, very often with fixed shifts. Pay is good too. But no. DB drivers are too stubborn. They are "making a better future for coming generation". That's a bull* I'd say. Normally, unions teach drivers to say this kind of nonsense. Just this time unions are on the other side of the fence. Drivers here are trying to again milk the cow called the NTA. Poor NTA, I feel sorry for this bad drivers' behaviour.

DB drivers, I feel, are just trying to find any excuse to get more money. The problem is that DB drivers who are against the purposed changes, I assume are the type of people who don't like any changes at all. Well, too bad - this is a 21st century - things move quickly and they indeed change drastically. Some for better, some for worse. If the drivers want to stay professionals and stay in the industry, they need to adopt and proof they are worth to be kept for work.

I unfortunately see very little options in the situation. We know things cannot stay the same as they are - it doesn't work for passengers and for junior drivers (the future generation, we called it).

I could think of reducing the wages and giving drivers the shifts with shorter breaks so they can spend more time with families or increase salaries slightly (as they are already good enough imo) and relate the increases to the performance (something what it's been purposed but refused by the drivers). Drivers can't get better wages and better shifts - too expensive. They have to be equal with junior drivers too and give up their years and years kept privileged shifts. What senior drivers value the most: their dear junior colleagues, money or families? Colleagues? - great, then equal shifts, wage increase based on performance. Money? - great, then salary increase (* based on performance, as they need to work for increase, can't get it for doing nothing differently, and adapt to the new shift changes). Family? - great, no shift changes, reduce or freeze salary, no bonus, but shorter breaks. These would help the DB with a budget a bit as shorter shifts would require additional drivers. Choose the option.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117790885#Comment_117790885

the fact they know what industry they are in means nothing as it does not mean they should not improve terms and conditions.

they are adults acting like adults and they work hard, it is not up to them to understand passengers needs but to simply drive the bus.

it's on the NTA to deal with passenger's needs and understand those needs.

money hasn't been mentioned, they rejected a deal that would have given a pay rise.

they are happy with changes but not changes for change sake that make the operation of the buses inefficient and which increase over all shifts which should simply be driving time only with required breaks.

what century we are in, just like most of your post, has no relevance to the fact that changes which disprove the working conditions of workers should always be disputed and prevented where possible.

oh and if you want the buses to run for longer/earlier, tell your politicians to pay for it, that is the reason there haven't been 24 hour routes until now.

Cookie_Monster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788423#Comment_117788423

Again you dismiss everyone apart from a few sacred drivers... selfishness once again raises its head with you

People arent ****-ing morons, they will certainly remember

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117790990#Comment_117790990

not selfish at all, just realistic.

if i as a pt enthusiast had to be reminded of the date of the last db strike then it's safe to say the average person will likely have long forgotten about it and moved on.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117790955#Comment_117790955

Of course it's up to the drivers to understand the passengers, their attitudes, needs etc. If you go to any job interview for a job related to customers, you'd need to mention at least with a few sentences about the customers. If drivers don't care about the passengers needs, they should really be driving a truck/lorry, but definitely not a bus. That is imo an ignorance.

But again, I respect the drivers and your own opinion. I just point out my own opinions and really enjoying to see how different we think.

I believe it's not just the NTA, but also up to the operators (such as DB, GOI etc.) to understand the passengers. Otherwise, if the operators fail to understand their customers, the operators may fail to fulfil the contracted (with the NTA) agreements which are at least in some way are tightly related to the customers' needs and expectations.

It's interesting that you say drivers rejected as they think "that make the operation of the buses inefficient". So on one hand, according to you, it's not up to the drivers to understand the passengers' needs, but on the other hand drivers actually care to understand the (in)efficiency of running the buses? This would be the operator's management's job to analyse this.

I unfortunately read this like that and it's just my own interpretation and understanding: drivers don't care about the passengers, but they care enough to put any sort of argument on the table whatever contradicts the proposal even if it's not the matter of their own professional understanding or not a part of their job to understand things they talk about. I don't think that drivers are educated, qualified and having enough of work experience to use an argument related to how to run/operate the buses efficiently.

Drivers should better focus to what's related to their own job and is much more important - passengers - their needs, requirements and expectations. Drivers are the customer service representatives behind the wheel. They don't bring the bags of potatoes on the buses. They bring people to places they need to go to at the time they need, and there is a certain service level expectation for the price they pay. Drivers get a salary for which isn't enough just to appear to work and steer the wheel safely and sell the tickets correctly. Drivers are also learning from the traffic situations every day and from the interactions with people every day. This should bring enough of understanding that these people don't use buses just for fun - they need to go somewhere, pretty much to any places in the city pretty much any time of the day or night. Drivers should be proud of this, not whine. If they like this job, they should ask themselves why they like - do they like driving, or do they like bringing people to places and learning to drive safely while in the challenging traffic situations.

Unfortunately, 21st century in retail and customer service is harder than it was in the 20th century. Customers' expectations are much higher and so professional drivers are also now (should be) required to be more professional and willing to sacrifice more for public. If you want to be called the front line people, such us medical staff, retailers etc. What's common is that they care about their patients, customers, clients and are willing to sacrifice and run the extra mile to create outstanding results.

I agree regarding the politicians - PT is underfunded for many many years in Ireland. The questions then why we keep voting for the same parties? (except for the last election, when people have chosen the populists)

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117789210#Comment_117789210

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but surely with WFH any future public transport strike would have much less impact?

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788549#Comment_117788549

DB went on strike in 2013 and 2016

drivingmissdaisy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786992#Comment_117786992

To clear things up for those not understanding.

In the proposals, all drivers work 5 days a week and do NOT get paid for their breaks.

Now just for reference post what time you would have to get up at to be in work at 06:00 in depot and a what time you would get home when finishing at 18:00 in city center

Well for me i am lucky don't live to far from depot so would have to get up at 05:10 and leave house at 05:30 and reckon get home around 19:20 if all went well traffic wise, still a long day, 10 minutes shy of a 14 hour work day, of course the heroes around here will consider that a handy number , but we unfortunately ain't all mighty men like you putting in 20 hours work days 7 days a week

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117791950#Comment_117791950

I understand very well that PT drivers don't get paid for breaks. This is a very usual practice in Europe and most likely other continents too. I myself worked in a PT and did these long hours. During breaks you can live your life: read books, study, go for walking or make some calls, watch movies on tablet etc. That's the drivers' life. If drivers don't want this and rather want to get to work, due job without dragging the day and get home - they made a mistake choosing to be a PT driver.

If they live far from depot, it's again a choice. They can ask to be relocated to a closer depot if possible. If not - should consider changing the company to somewhere closer or move to live closer. It's not the employer's problem that employee chosen to work far from home. During job interviews it's usual to ask the area a candidate is living in. If there are two equal candidates, definitely the one living closer is a better option for the company.

drivingmissdaisy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117792794#Comment_117792794

So let me get this straight, you want drivers to live near depots, you see no problem about wandering around Dublin on your break for 4 hours. If divers don’t like it leave and get another job? Where are these jobs, do tell as we would all like to know about them. Especially those who commute 1hour + every day both directions to Dublin to work, do you not think they would take a job 10 minutes from home if they could?

Now you say you are from Eastern Europe and are a driver, why then did you not say over there and and work, you come here for better pay? Would you not accept the lower pay in east Europe for driving ?

it’s ok for you to move to another country to look for better pay and conditions but not ok for DB drivers to want the same, is that the gist of your argument?

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117791950#Comment_117791950

You don't get you count your commute as your workday. That's your choice. That's an unfair representation of the job.

The breaks thing is a seperate issue.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117792973#Comment_117792973

Sorry but your commute to your work has nothing to do with anything. Whether you are 1 min from your depot or 1 hour makes no difference to the travelling public.

Also, unpaid breaks are the norm almost everywhere.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117792973#Comment_117792973

Drivers can study and change a qualification. Or, if they want to be drivers, get a job closer. Or stop whining and value and appreciate what they have.

I came to Ireland not for economical reasons. It was a personal decision with an idea to practise English and live a multicultural life. Stayed because of many reasons: Irish are pleasant, country is beautiful, I like the more consistent weather conditions, lots of cultures around - wonderful experiences to learn from different people...

For me there were just a few options as my English knowledge is better than Russian. I've chosen Ireland over the UK as it's more rural and still developing (internet speeds, little modernisation in the companies; even the internet banking and the code generators was something new in Ireland back in 2014 but in my home country all seniors already new how to use it). So I was intrigued to see the country's changes and how it's evolving.

Similar, now, I'm interested to see how the PT will change in Ireland. I've been to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, France, Italy, Spain, UK, Portugal, Denmark - I know what I like and what I don't like using PT and what works how in each of the capital cities of these countries (except Warsaw were I haven't been as only passed through the other towns and cities so Poland doesn't really count so much).

I have never said I was a driver. I do drive a personal car but never been driving for work. I said I worked same shifts as driver does. I was a conductor, then inspector and then a quality executive. I have worked in the local intercity buses (with three counties), also later in the nationwide intercity buses and then later even the international lines within Europe.

When I came to Ireland, my starting job and salary was lower than what I was getting back in my home country as I've started from pretty much zero and in a different industry, changed jobs several of times to gain more experience, upskill and get a better wage. Again, I didn't come for economical reasons... Later started studying, got friends etc etc. So stayed.

Your assumptions are wrong.

drivingmissdaisy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117793588#Comment_117793588

The are the current norm in DB, no one has a or with that, it’s that they are going to be 2 to 5 hours in length.

Ask any spare drive what’s the worst part of the job and 100% will say Bogies, when a drive gets marked in ask what’s the best thing and 100% will say no more bogies.

Drivers are no different from most, not many can buy a house in Dublin so they have moved to so called commuter towns. The number of driver who once get marked in get out of Dublin is very high. Now these drivers have been told the future holds 12 hours work days. Drivers did not sign up for this, that 1+ hour commute each way before and after a 12 hour shift for 8 hours pay it’s not on and none of you here can say hand on heart you don’t see a problem with it

drivingmissdaisy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117794170#Comment_117794170

So you are saying you are a economic migrant, you seen the chance for a better life in Ireland and took it. Good for you .

Currently drivers have a “good life” but these changes if implemented will make it a “ bad life”. Instead of moving like you, the drivers have decided to stay and fight for a better future, who would have a problem with that?

Hard won decent working conditions should and will be fought for, if you don’t you deserve to be walked all over.

Post your times to leave and get home from a 06:00 depot to 18:00 city center days work. , it is hugely relevant, no one here would be happy with that and if you say other wise you are lying and just have a problem with DB and are trolling.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117794558#Comment_117794558

I have to admit we have our points and I just don't want to keep going all over the same things as we have already, I believe, said all what we wanted.

You really have some valid points and drivers' expectations are wishful. I feel for the drivers. Of course, I have my own reasons and points I have expressed.

I hope the drivers will find the middle ground and settle with something what would satisfy them as a compromise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117794539#Comment_117794539

Truly bonkers logic. Your commute has nothing to do with anything except that's its your commute. It has no bearing on your contract of employment.

You seem to be struggling to comprehend this for some strange reason.

drivingmissdaisy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795108#Comment_117795108

I think everyone who is not a feverent DB hater can see by the simple fact that not one poster who claims to not see issue with the length of the shifts in the new roster has posted what time they would have to leave home to be in depot for 06:00 and then get home after finishing in city center at 18:00 and making way back to depot to get in car and drive home.

This simple fact is proof that these haters know they are horrendous and cant be justified, so they beat around the bush and say no one get paid for breaks or commuting, all the while avoiding the fact that DD driver don't get paid for breaks or commuting, nor are they asking for that.

So come on post your times, and then justify how these are fair work shifts that you would have zero problems working, thats not asking much.

( if it gets a few honest replies ill spill the beans on a humdinger of a rumour circulating)

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796360#Comment_117796360

Based on all your rumours years ago turning out to be complete bollox, that isn't quite the sweetener you think it is.