Katherine Zappone Envoy Gig

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714388#Comment_117714388

Is what confirmed? That the State pays the accommodation of Irish diplomats abroad? Yes we do, so I’d imagine this gig would have been no different!

seamus

You're getting into the deeper complexities of it now.

Fraud = putting in for expenses which you know you didn't incur

Abuse = putting in for expenses which are technically above board, but far in excess of what's necessary.

Abuse is in essence an systemic issue. If it possible to abuse a system, then the system is broken. People are corrupt and will take what's available to them, and the system needs to account for that.

If your private employer said, "You can claim up to €200/month expenses for your mobile phone and we won't ask for proof", then 99% of people will claim that €200. And will laugh at the people who don't.

Likewise, "If you need to rent a property in order to travel for work, you can do so, and we don't care where you rent or how much it costs, just claim it back", 99% of people will rent out a large, central, expensive property, regardless of whether it is excessive for their needs.

And they will feel justified in doing so, because the employer has effectively told them that it is OK to do that.

The fact that in this case it's a public employer who allows blank cheque expenses, is irrelevant.

That doesn't make these abuses OK, but getting annoyed that people abuse an abusable system is like getting annoyed that rain makes you wet. You will lose your sanity way before anyone gets punished for abusing the system.

FrancieBrady

'Getting annoyed that people abuse an abusable system is like getting annoyed that rain makes you wet. You will lose your sanity way before anyone gets punished for abusing the system.

So give up because this is unfixable?

Did you really type that in and press post?

CDarby

I think I've mentioned before on this site that I'm an ex FF voter, from a family of FF stock. Going in with FG disgusted me, and, so they will never, ever regain my vote unless there's a major leadership overhaul.

Look at the party now. What values has Martin or the party have left, he (Martin) is willing to put his own party in harms way to save the leader of FG ?

He will put his neck on the line for Varadkar but wouldn’t for Barry Cowen and DarraghCalleary. He literally pushed Calleary out for a similar offence.

There's something rotten in the state of Ireland that a govt TD would even dare to come on to the national airwaves and admit that the Tánaiste broke the same guidelines he helped negotiate, and also admitted outdoor events of up to 200 had been allowed since early July, but was never was communicated to the relevant industry? How much will we, as tax payers shell out now in compensation to the event and hospitality industry because they wanted to save Leo's skin?

Imagine the uproar here if it became illegal overnight to drive on a Friday morning between the hours of 9-10, might be in the statute book, but no-one made the public aware of it, - extreme example, but not dissimilar.

This isn't Uganda, this is Ireland. We deserve better than what's being delivered.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714497#Comment_117714497

I think it's pretty clearly implied in my post that you fix this by changing the system to make it harder to abuse. Spending your time trying to name and shame the abusers is a mug's game. The next politician in line will take the same liberties.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714508#Comment_117714508

I think you are pretty clearly saying - ignore the abusers.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714399#Comment_117714399

So it’s not confirmed. So it is probably similar to the pension bump conversation which was also rubbish

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714508#Comment_117714508

Unless the government introduces a expenses system from top to bottom, including councillors it will continue to happen. As I said all parties have TD who are committing expenses fraud.

Butson

The media heads here like Matt Cooper et all are more concerned with Dominic Cummings and BoJo.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714524#Comment_117714524

But isn't that what the supporters of this government (mainly FG) have been saying since the start of this government, just ignore the abuse because look over there they could be worse. All you have to do is look at the defence of Varadkar leaking a confidential document, Crony appointment of Woulfe to the SC, Dara Murphy expenses and now this, each one defended to the hilt with the same excuses, nothing to see here, angry folks, they didn't break the law, it was confidential document but it wasn't, but SF, etc.

Once to see that sort of carry on from party loyalists then all you can assume is that they are fine with criminality in all its forms. It's kinda like the guy buying drugs and then next day tut tutting when there is gangland shooting.

seamus

I'm saying that if you only focus on the abusers you'll never solve anything.

It's the Batman fallacy. Batman goes out night after night beating up criminals. Every night. It never gets better. There are always new criminals to take their place. Bruce Wayne has the power, money and influence to make real social changes to improve his city, but instead he chooses to wear a superhero costume and go out, monotonously, night after night, beating up criminals in a vain and pointless attempt to rid his city of crime. It doesn't work and it can't work.

Likewise, naming and shaming abusers of the expense system and expecting that will make things better, is stupidity. They haven't legally done anything wrong, there is no disincentive for them or others to do it again. Anyone who thinks that in exposing expense abuses, a great public service has been accomplished, is a fool.

By all means expose the abusers of the system, but at the same time vote for people who make firm commitments to fix the system. Otherwise you're just pissing in the wind.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714620#Comment_117714620

Enda got into to power promising...they all promise seamus.

seamus

OK....? Whatever Enda promised is for his voters to reflect on, not sure what the relevance is here.

The discussion here is about how a seemingly "small" €15k nixer for a TD's mate is actually worth considerably more. But not because of fraud, but because the expense system lends itself to be legally abused.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714601#Comment_117714601

If you are going to list out the wrong doing of TD maybe you should include all parties and independents?

I don’t see anyone saying ignore the abuse, I see people saying they should resolve the abuse for everyone and long term.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714703#Comment_117714703

How do you 'resolve' it when you have people saying 'leave the abusers alone or ignore them'?

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714703#Comment_117714703

The reason why I am not including independents or others is because this is about FG and their supporters who are happy to turn a blind eye to corruption and cronyism and only too happy to point the finger elsewhere. Maybe if FG and their supporters took a bit of ownership instead of trying to wave away the wrong doing they would get more support but instead all you want to do is deflect and point elsewhere as proven by your post. Get your own house in order first before pointing the finger else where.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714729#Comment_117714729

Zappone is an independent, she was an independent when she had issues with expenses. If she got the job and again had issue with the expenses she would still be independent yet you bang on about FG.

Yes they have questions to answer like all parties.

FrancieBrady

I asked this at Golfgate and I'll ask it here to: Does anyone find it odd that no photographs emerged from Golfgate and no photos emerged from this event either.

The Greens hooley, plenty of pics, SF's funeral, photos emerge, Healy Rae's, photos emerge.

Two events involving FG/FF - not a single photo emerges.

Odd?

Dempo1

Just released by Failte Ireland

The guidelines state the following:

• Dedicated employees must always monitor and manage physical distancing rather than simply rely on signage
• Queueing procedures must be implemented if customers cannot be seated immediately
• In a controlled environment physical distancing of at least one metre should be maintained between people seated at tables
• Physical distancing of a minimum of one metre is required between the outer edges of the party (back of chair to back of chair)

The advice also notes that weddings fall under a different regulation and have an upper limit of 100 guests.

Very very doubtful any of this was implemented at the Merrion Event

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714793#Comment_117714793

The obvious difference with the SF & Healy-Rae thing is that these took place in public.

Were there pictures of the Green party..eh..party?

I guess that too though could be explained by the fact that there was a guest list of 3,500, presumably many of them just local randomers.

The other two events being private functions with closed guest lists.

Allinall

"Very very doubtful any of this was implemented at the Merrion Event"

Very doubtful it will be implemented at any future event either.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714793#Comment_117714793

Plenty of reasons why, nothing odd at all either. I could answer but I’m sure you will then spend the next few hours twisting and turning the post so will leave you to work it out on your own

archfi

The fact that in this case it's a public employer who allows blank cheque expenses, is irrelevant.

Eh, no. It is very relevant.

A private company can piss their private money up any wall they want.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714819#Comment_117714819

And nobody took a snap? That what you are saying?

Golfgate was a presentation and Merrion Hotel was a farewell gig allegedly. Ordinarily, would people not be snapping away, at events like that, private or otherwise?

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714758#Comment_117714758

There you go again trying to excuse FG as if they had no hand in this. Tell me who created the job for her? Who didn't follow the procedures for the job role? Who blindsided the Taoiseach with this job? Who went on radio to defend it and got their stories mixed up? Who went to her party at the Merrion Hotel and then subsequently had the AG come out and tell Failte Ireland, the hospitality sector and everyone else that they got the guidelines wrong all to the save an FG TD? I can help you with the answer it wasn't Zappone, She is nothing but a leach and should have been sent on her way.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714845#Comment_117714845

Read my post, I never excused FG, the opposite in fact and I said they have questions to answer.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714872#Comment_117714872

This is what you said "Zappone is an independent, she was an independent when she had issues with expenses. If she got the job and again had issue with the expenses she would still be independent yet you bang on about FG.

Yes they have questions to answer like all parties."

No other parties have questions to answer in this mess except FG, Stop trying to drag others into it when this mess is a making all of FG alone.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714830#Comment_117714830

It is in my opinion 'odd' because a pic of them observing the rules, would be helpful...but none emerged from these two events.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714842#Comment_117714842

Think about this logically now for a second Francie. Famous people get married all the time. They're usually photographed extensively by journalists when they're out in public, but pictures of them inside the hotel or during their reception never end up in the papers.

Why do you think that is? Do you think their guests don't take any photos at all inside the wedding reception?

Or do you think it's just more likely that the people who did take photos, consider it to be a private event and don't pass on the photos to randomers and journalists?

For a man who was convinced that this was all just a bumbling shambles, you've done quite the pivot now you're saying that the government have a tight leash on what is being released to press and are actively suppressing any photos of the event.

mrslancaster

Deleted