Adoptions and the right to an original birth cert

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246053#Comment_119246053

It's a case of adopted people and natural parents (and many adoptive parents, too) campaigning for literally decades for what has been standard in other common law jurisdictions for many decades before we started campaigning here. 1970s in England and Wales, 1920s in Scotland. We are not looking - or getting - access to "her" details, we are getting our birth certs and our background and medical information - scant as it usually is, and outdated as the latter will be - from our adoption files.

Hermy

So now I'm woke for wanting to know where I come from - that's certainly a novel idea!

My birth mother went looking for her children - me and my half-sibling - 20 odd years ago when the National Contact Register was first issued.

Is she woke too?

And what about my birth father who always hoped we might reconnect but didn't hold out much hope at this late stage of his life?

Or is it only adoptees desire to trace that invokes woke-ism?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119247194#Comment_119247194

Pay no heed to that poster. they can always be counted on for a terrible opinion.

Hermy

Thanks @ohnonotgmail

I have a fixed position regarding an adoptees right to information so it's interesting to read opposing views on the subject even if those views are coming from people who don't appear to have firsthand experience of the matter.

dorothylives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677423#Comment_117677423

I can see both sides of the debate, but what difference would knowing about hereditary illnesses achieve? Realistically?

dorothylives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679099#Comment_117679099

The Mother's have been totally abused by the State. There must be many women who never told their husbands or subsequent children about a child they gave up, they probably thought that they'd take the secret with them to the grave. Now those women will be wondering if the child they gave up is going to come knocking on the door. There are avenues that people can explore with parents who want to make contact with children that they gave up for adoption, if they don't want to then their privacy should be respected.

Giving the parents details is not only a breach of privacy it's potentially very dangerous. What if someone who is unhinged or just plain angry about having been give up for adoption attacks and kills their mother once they've tracked her down? No thought has been given to the rights of the Mother in any of this, just as the well being of the mother didn't matter a damn to the state when the woman was pregnant or gave the baby up for adoption. We're talking about babies who'd be middle aged now. Any hereditary health problems they had would probably have come to the surface by now.

Hermy

Driving a car is potentially very dangerous.

What if someone who is unhinged or just plain angry gets a drivers license?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255530#Comment_119255530

Agreed.

There are some elderly women out there now who are terrified.

But they never mattered.

Hermy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255628#Comment_119255628

Do you know these women personally?

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255517#Comment_119255517

So in my case, when I traced my natural mother, I found there was a family history of a certain type of cancer, fatal if not caught early. So I now get screened for that. There was another condition which is hereditary that I don't have, but knowledge of this led to a diagnosis for one of my kids, whose life has now improved no end now they're getting the proper treatment.

So there's that.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255628#Comment_119255628

Who are they? Why are they "terrified"? Nobody is going to turn up on their doorstep - that only happens in bad fiction. Again - because apparently you've not read the thread - adopted people and natural parents all sought this change, and we've all been tracing successfully for decades, anyway, without ruining anyone's life.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255530#Comment_119255530

What if someone who is unhinged or just plain angry about having been give up for adoption attacks and kills their mother once they've tracked her down?

...

What. The. Actual. ****.

Get a grip. Real life is not a bad soap opera. Again - adopted people and natural parents and adoptive parents all sought this.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246053#Comment_119246053

ODFO with the "woke" crap. Just demonstrates your complete ignorance tbh.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255628#Comment_119255628

Another poster who can always be relied upon for a completely shít hottake on any topic.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255638#Comment_119255638

I know one.

Whether her terror is justified or not is irrelevant. There is nothing anyone can say which will convince her otherwise.

And I certainly believe that there are others in similar circumstances- some of whom will have told absolutely no one.

There are huge numbers of Irish people who live perfectly well, despite having wrong information about their actual biological parents. Internationally, Irish people are well known for lying about family structures.

Hermy

So you know one woman who is terrified and you think that her terror should be the basis for denying all adoptees the right to know about their lives prior to adoption.

I happen to know several people who are not living perfectly well because of having wrong information about their birth parents.

What do you propose we should do about them?

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119256460#Comment_119256460

And yet again... nobody is going to turn up on her doorstep. Except maybe in the imagination of dorothylives, who has been watching too many lurid horror films and daytime soaps. All the law change means is adopted will get their birth certs (more easily - it's always been possible, where the adoption was legal and the info on the birth cert wasn't falsified) and whatever background information and out of date medical info is on our files.

Maybe be a good friend and reassure her. You could remind her the Adoption Authority runs a Contact Preference Register where she can register a preference for no contact, if she hasn't already. And she could supply more up-to-date medical info, too. That'd be nice.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119256600#Comment_119256600

That's a stretch. It shouldn't deny people the right to access the original certificate where everyone agrees. There should be protections for the women who do not agree though and that should mean that the cert isn't released to either the natural mother dies or agrees.

The no contact register is a load of nonsense though.

The state trampled on these women on the 50 and 60's and surprise surprise is trampling on them again.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119258702#Comment_119258702

You and I are strangers, in law. Why should I have the right to stop you from getting your birth cert?

Answer: I can't. Birth certs are public records. Adopted people can already get their birth certs (in bold because nobody going "the roof is on fire!" seems able to grasp this fact!), we just have to jump through some hoops. The new law removes those hoops. That's all. I can get my birth certificate, that lists my birth details. (If you care to share your d-o-b and mother's maiden name here, I can also go and get yours. Like I say - public record).

The contact preference register has been operating since 2005 - 17 years, now. How many no-contact preferences filed by natural parents have been ignored? Go on, have a guess!

Spoiler Warning

Spoiler: None.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259175#Comment_119259175

I can't verify that but it's irrelevant anyway, for two reasons: those that really didn't want contact would've just refused to engage with the adoption agency and secondly you shouldn't setup a system that relies on essentially good will to operate - one where if that good will is broken could have serious repercussions for the injured party.

And while births are a matter of public record, and you say you can get your birth record anyway, well then surely this legislation isn't needed. Or are you are perhaps being a bit disingenuous??

Hermy

So your solution is that the State should trample on adoptees instead?

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259483#Comment_119259483

No, the state should set up a system where it offers conciliation, where it encourages birth mother's to give the consent voluntarily and where consent is not forthcoming the AA should provide the maximal amount of information including canvassing the birth mother's for family medical history, but short of information that could identify the mother. Any withheld information would be passed to the adoptee on the death of the mother. The problem is the lack of consent in the current law.

With this proposed system all but a handful of adoptees would get their certs in short order and for those that hold out, they would get their certs eventually. It attempts a meaningful balance of rights, where our legislation has no balancing at all.

Hermy

That is anything but a meaningful balance.

Anything less than unfettered access to my identity prior to adoption is trampling all over my rights.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259384#Comment_119259384

And while births are a matter of public record, and you say you can get your birth record anyway, well then surely this legislation isn't needed. Or are you are perhaps being a bit disingenuous??

No, I am not being disingenuous.

You (not adopted) want your long-form birth cert. You go to your local HSE office, fill in a form, and a short while later and after payment of a modest fee, you are given your long-form birth cert.

(Or: you go to your local HSE office, fill in a form with the correct details for anyone for whom a birth record exists, and a short while later and after payment of a modest fee, you are given their long-form birth cert. Again - public record.)

I (adopted) want my long-form birth cert (and let's assume I don't know my natural mother's name or my place of birth). I find a tracing guide on the internet (they used to be here on boards.ie as well as elsewhere, I don't know if they're still here following the site update). Armed with this information, I have to go to the Research Room of the General's Registrar's Office in Dublin fill out a form, and start looking through the indices to the birth register for the year of my birth. It will take me somewhere between one and four days to identify all of the possible entries that might be mine (possibles), and narrow them down to just the probables. Sometimes this means I need to request the birth cert to verify it or eliminate it, which means I pay a fee to get each individual cert, and I'll be looking for 1 to 10 certs.

There's a GR office in Roscommon but it's not open to the public. And I've just noticed the Dublin office is now only open from 10am to 1pm (it used to be open until 4pm or 4:30pm) so that 1-4 days might now take 2 to eight days.

So all in all you're looking at a week off work, minimum, a visit to Dublin if you don't live there, and a lot of tedious searching of old books, which must be done manually. As opposed to under the new legislation, requesting the cert, being given a mandatory "information session", and eventually getting it from the Adoption Authority.

No, the state should set up a system where it offers conciliation, where it encourages birth mother's to give the consent voluntarily and where consent is not forthcoming the AA should provide the maximal amount of information including canvassing the birth mother's for family medical history, but short of information that could identify the mother. 

Not a bad description of the how the system has been working and what's being put into law.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259712#Comment_119259712

And to Hell with the rights of the mother who, for whatever reason, gave her baby up for adoption.

Both have rights. Neither one more than the other.

Hermy

Nothing of the sort Mary Anne.

I just want the same rights as every other citizen of the State with regard to who I am and where I came from.

Providing me with that right and the requisite access to information doesn't interfere in any way with the rights of either of my birth parents to their privacy. That remains wholly intact.

Hermy

To hell with the opinions of the naysayers on Boards.

Today the President signed the Birth Information and Tracing Bill into law.

Another very welcome step in the right direction for Irish society.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0701/1307901-birth-information/

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275376#Comment_119275376

Hear hear!

I'm looking at a news report here from a couple of years ago:

Figures released by the AAI show that since it was set up in 2005, just 137 (5.3%) out of the 2,550 birth mothers who registered for the NACPR have listed some form of no contact. https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30961632.html (2019)

Only 137 natural mothers registered a no-contact preference, over 14 years. The usually quoted figure is 40,000 legal adoptions, since the Adoption Act came into force in 1952. So 0.3% of natural mothers registered a no-contact preference, in total.

Kinda gives the lie to the myth of the dear old lady terrified of her secret getting out or having someone turn up on her doorstep!

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119276201#Comment_119276201

No it doesn't. It shows that a small minority want their rights to privacy vindicated. Rights stripped away by the bill signed into law today.

The law should have catered to them rather than saying that they don't matter.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119276256#Comment_119276256

It did cater to them.

An adopted person can get their own - their own - birth cert, and whatever vague background information and out-of-date medical information is on the file. (Why do you think the medical information, where present, was recorded in the first place?!) A natural parent who doesn't want to be contacted can register that preference.

That's fair.

0.3% of natural mothers, apparently, will do so. 137 women, over 14 years, out of 40,000. Less than one no-contact preference registered a month. And it'll be respected.