No August is not the start of Autumn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117697744#Comment_117697744

Good example of the cultural cringe here, the Irish seasons ( which were the European seasons before meteorological exactness on weather) clearly predated catholicism. And Catholicism doesn't mandate seasons anyway. Also Ireland isn't the only place with catholicism.

Besides those 3 fundamental and essentials things you got wrong, you make an excellent point.

MowldyCabbage

Autumn is my favourite time of year. Those cool August evenings when people start to light the fire as we bid farewell to summer.

The_Kew_Tour

In my little mind

Winter is November, December, January and February

Spring is March and April

Summer is May, June, July and August

Autumn September and October

Now im just some bloke writing on boards. I'm not saying we get four great months of glorious weather in summer but they are mostly the month's I dont have worry about heat. (Thats Irish summer for me ha)

Plus I think we do get more of a winter than just 3 month's. Its just rough guide for me but its just what I process ha.

JupiterKid

The number of boards posters who abhor sunshine, warm weather and outdoors activities never ceases to amaze me over the years.

And then there’s the unrelenting negativity - some will turn any positive into a negative. Deeply unhappy (and angry) people methinks.

Another 27 days of Summer still to go...😎☀️☀️☀️👍👍

Donald Trump

Can anyone understand the ranting about Catholics? Does the same poster do that for everything?

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117700817#Comment_117700817

But you are the one who brought midsummer's in to it (and then got the date wrong). It is a religious festival, which you are confusing with the summer solstice (as some Irish people do). However, it was always the 24th in Ireland and still celebrated to date by Bonifre night in Cork (and other places) on June 23rd (St John's eve). Ultimately, it is a pretty useless indicator as it does not comply with our calendar (it is not the middle of the month). You can read more about the confusion regarding this date and your confusion regarding the seasons here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/midsummer-or-quarter-day-1.61129. There is also an excellent article here regarding the prevalence of this historical festival which seems to have almost disappeared these days.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117700867#Comment_117700867

How is this culture cringe? Also, how were they the European seasons at one stage? Ultimately, various tribes of humans around the world all invented their own calendars in prehistoric times. Eventually, with the roman empire, one calendar began to dominate Europe, which was tweaked over the centuries to fit in with religious festivals and to recalibrate it (i.e. Julian to Gregorian etc). In time, the European calendar got adopted globally (either as a replacement of exiting calendars or as alternative to local). I never said Catholicism mandates seasons, nor have I said it is the only place with Catholicism. The only point that refers to the word "catholic" in my previous posts is that, if you attend a Catholic primary school in Ireland you are taught a unique calendar that has Brigid's day as the start of Spring, All saint's day as the start of Winter etc. If you attend primary school in Ireland that is not run by the church (Educate Together/Non denoms etc), you are taught the official seasons (1st March is start of spring).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117701298#Comment_117701298

Can't see any ranting about Catholics (but a lot of confusion/defensiveness at the mere mention of the word). There is a very valid criticism of primary schools run by the Catholic church in relation to the teaching of the wrong seasons. And the result of that teaching, and the confusion it causes, can be witnessed on this thread.

Donald Trump

So can you tell us what was taught in the Protestant schools.

I'm half afraid to ask what was taught in Jewish schools

So what is your explanation/theory as to why the evil Catholics wanted to trick the Irish population (and make them continue using the old Irish definitions of seasons which that crafty Catholics invented a time machine to go back before the time of Jesus in order to implant the false idea into the then Irish population)

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117701519#Comment_117701519

eh? Why do you think the Catholics are evil? I really can't understand your post. Is this another covfefe moment?

TheShow

Bro Bosco would be turning in his grave.

August = Autumn, Feb = Spring, May = Summer, Nov = Winter.

JupiterKid

My own personal take on the seasons?

Spring - Feb 14th to May 15th

Summer - May 16th to August 31st.

Autumn - Sept 1st to November 15th

Winter - November 16th to Feb 13th.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702020#Comment_117702020

Why are you going on about Catholics when the issue is that just you don't know the definition of the seasons in Ireland?

We are in the Autumn now. The best growth of the year is behind us. Plants have started to go to seed and are dying off. Lads already started harvesting cereal crops two weeks ago. Summer is gone.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702219#Comment_117702219

As per your previous post, and my response, I am not "going on about the Catholics". I have never once mentioned "the Catholics" other than in response to posts about "the Catholics", to state I am not talking about "the Catholics". You are the one who keeps bringing it up.

P.S. Grass growth is not the scientifically accepted standard for defining seasons. But if it did, you would have a massive problem as, according to your own post, there is more grass growth on Sept 1st than there is on May 1st with June, July & August being the peak months (i.e. Summer). Likewise, December, January and February are the 3 months with the lowest growth (i.e. Winter). In fact, your chart has more grass growth in November than it does in March.

Basically, the evidence you have provided completely 100% contradicts your own statement.

Such a Donald...

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117690031#Comment_117690031

When people say Goodbye they are using a short form of God be with You. So just like Summer can be Autumn, Hello can be Goodbye.

q2ice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702308#Comment_117702308

Yet you are the one who keeps bringing up "the Catholics". It was you who stated that the reason for August being in Autumn is because of the Catholic Schools and their teaching. You even spuriously claimed that it was the "Catholic Calendar" (which was incorrect). Pretty much every post you have posted here contains references to "Catholics". 🙄

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702308#Comment_117702308

There is no point in you trying to talk about a subject that you clearly know nothing about. We are know in the Autumn of the year. You can call it whatever you want. It won't change that fact.

As someone else pointed out to you already, the longest day of the year is in June. So we have May/June/July for Summer. The shortest day is December and so Nov/Dec/Jan for Winter.

This Catholic thing is funny. I don't know why you think it has anything to do with any modern religion.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117690352#Comment_117690352

Hibernia, the land of Winter.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702405#Comment_117702405

OK, I am going to try this one last time. And I'll try to use small words so there is no misunderstanding. "The Catholics" refers to people of the Catholic faith. Primary schools that are run by the Catholic Church in Ireland (a completely different thing to "the Catholics") teach the seasons based on Brigid's day being the start of Spring. Primary schools that are not run by the Catholic church teach the official seasons (that March 1st is the start of spring). That is it. Very simple.

You are correct that I mistyped "Catholic Calendar". I meant "calendar taught by Catholic schools".

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702430#Comment_117702430

As someone who has posted numerous links to reputable sources to back up my assertions, while you keep posting nonsense and trying to misrepresent what is in people's posts, I think it is clear who the person is that "knows nothing about the subject".

Why are you now going on about the longest day of the year (referred to as the Summer Solstice, which some Irish people also confuse with Midsummer's day)? I thought you wanted to define seasons by grass growth? Is it because you completely shot yourself in the foot with that claim?

q2ice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702517#Comment_117702517

You are obviously not using small enough words for you to be able to understand yourself. The Catholic Church are "the Catholics" so any reference to the Catholic Church running the schools is "the Catholics" running the schools. 😅 Your level of incomprehension at basic logic is astounding. 😆

Primary schools in Ireland not run by the Catholic Church teach that August is in Autumn. The same as the Primary Schools run by the Catholic Church. That is it very simple. 😆

May, June and July contain the most daylight of all the months and are thus in Summer. November, December and January contain the least daylight and are thus winter. This means February, March and April are in Spring and consequently August, September and October are in Autumn. That is it. Very simple.

q2ice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702534#Comment_117702534

We know who "knows nothing about the subject" and it is dotsman. 😅

As far as the graph posted, it clearly shows you cannot read it. There is a significant rise in the growth of grass from May 01st which shows there is a spike in growth at those months. Harvesting is usually done in June/July and the maintenance of the curve in August and Septemer has to do with artificial fertilisation (and spread of traditional fertiliser). Generally a week after harvesting, artificial manure is spread on the ground and if there was the same growth as in May then there would actually be a peak in August, not a plateau.

FunLover18

August is August lads, it doesn't really matter what season you think it is, it comes around at the same time every year.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702558#Comment_117702558

Wow, I am at a loss for words. You're right, I clearly didn't use small enough words.

Instead, I'll post it in terms that have been written for primary school children.

https://www.met.ie/cms/assets/uploads/2021/02/YP-Fun-Facts-Meteorological-Seasons.pdf

Here is a report on Spring 2021 in Ireland:

https://www.met.ie/cms/assets/uploads/2021/06/spring21sum.pdf

Here is Met Eireann explaining the official seasons in Ireland:

https://www.met.ie/climate/climate-of-ireland

Here is a Primary School teacher blogging about the confusion regarding the teaching of seasons in Ireland:

http://www.infanteducation.ie/infanted-blog/teaching-season

Here is an Educate Together Primary school learning about the correct seasons, and learning about them in the correct way:

https://www.powerstownet.com/did-you-know-that-the-season-months-have-changed-ash-class/

q2ice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702625#Comment_117702625

So you agree that you didn't use small enough words for your own comprehension, because you are still not understanding. 🤣

No point posting links from a weather forecaster - one that has only been in existence for less than a hundred years. The seasons are far older than that. 😆

Weather and seasons are not the same thing.

Why do you keep posting links to some random primary school teacher 😅 What do the blog ramblings of some primary school teacher have to do with anything?

I will use small words for you because you are incapable of basic logic:

Most light in May, June and July means they are the summer months. That means August is in Autumn. 🤣 How can you not understand that? Should be enough small words for you. 🤣

Edit: Are you a primary school student or a primary school teacher as that would explain a lot. Most of your 'information' comes from primary school resources.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702653#Comment_117702653

Please post a link to a State body stating the above.

q2ice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702662#Comment_117702662

You are looking for a link to a State body that states your lack of comprehension and basic logic? 🤣 Priceless

q2ice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702625#Comment_117702625

To put it in the simplest terms? Answer me this - Which months have the most daylight? You can surely answser that question.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702669#Comment_117702669

Still waiting...

Go on, I dare you. Post a link to an official state body stating that May to July is summer.

Or just admit you were wrong, and thank me for educating you.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702534#Comment_117702534

I must have missed those links about the Catholic's trying to trick the Irish. Can you please post them again.

As I said, there is no point in you going on about something you appear to have no knowledge of.

It’s to do with the agricultural calander as the seanfhoc says ‘Má chuireann tú san earrach bainfidh tú san fhómhar’ If you plant in spring you will harvest in autumn. ( as in if you do your preleration you will reap the rewards)

The summer holidays were set up orginally when Ireland was a agricultural economy (which it still to a certain degree going on the value of milk/ meat exports) and children would be kept at home anyway for work that was essential for family survival either economically or at subsistance level. The main crops to be harvested in August were potatoes and oats. Enough spuds would have to be harvested to feed the family until the next summer. They would also need to be clamped (stored) as would carrots and beetroot. Onions would have to be dried. Oats would have to be thrashed and have the chaff removed before storage. Parsnips, leeks and cabbage could be left in the ground over winter. This was all work for August i.e. harvesting crops.

The other months of June and July are summer months i.e. months of growth with long days which is useful for getting work done. In Ireland turf would be saved as feul for the next year at this time and hay would be saved as fodder for animals. All of this would need to be brought to the house to be stored, the turf in reeks and the hay in cocks or in the shed.

Spring = planting / birth of animals

Summer = growth

Autumn = harvest

Winter = no growth / hibernation

This still remains a true today for gardening and farm work.

The date of Easter changes as it is a Catholic / Christian holiday and is lunar. As other posters have pointed out may other festivals and bank holidays have much older Celtic origins. Lúnasa - august bank holiday and celebration of the begining of the harvest and plenty. Samhain - halloween marking the begining of winter and celebration of the link between this world and the other world of the supernatural I guess - síoga, púca etc. Imbolg - St. Brigets Day marking the begining of spring and celebration of fertility. Bealtaine marking the begining of summer when cattle were brought out to summer pasture ans driven between two bonfires to keep them safe. Midsummer was renamed Oíche Shin Sheáin or St Johns Eve. Midwinter was lumped into Christmas I guess.

Irish people seem to love a good bonfire too as they seem to be associated with almost all of those festivals. I guess it was a good focal point around which to gather for a decent celebration. It still is I guess.

@dotsman

Someone mentioned that March 1st is the begining of Spring ? @dotsman It never was in Ireland as far as I’m aware and still isn’t. It was and still is the 1st of Febuary - Imbolc or St. Bridgets day. A celebration of fertility mostly linked to birth. As lambing / calving began it sparked a celebration of all birth. Also the first growth emerges.

The seasons are not related to grass growth only.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117701491#Comment_117701491

I didn’t get the dates wrong. The European mid summer festivals are at different dates in late June but are all around the solstice. They are not religious festivals in many cases - in Sweden and Lithuania they are decidedly pagan. In other countries St John’s day clearly — like Christmas — is a Christianisation of the previous festivals. To know this you wouldn’t even have had to read a book, and to be fair you haven’t — just watch the news around the summer or winter solstice. But but but but Irish Catholicism.

My point was that these mid summer festivals - all called mid summer in their respective languages — indicate that these cultures used to see sometime in May as the start of summer. Else how could June be mid summer. Mid July is meteorological mid summer, but that’s new.

And since you need some learning there are plenty of places in the world where winter doesn’t follow either meteorological or astrological summer but is called when the first permanent snowfall or 5 days of frost happens. Cultures and climates vary.

https://electroverse.net/winter-has-officially-arrived-in-one-swedish-town/

it’s not that you are wrong about meteorological summer in Ireland, august is hotter if wetter than May. It’s the mid wit cultural cringe nonsense about how backward Ireland is to even think about different seasons, complete with the cliched nonsense about Catholicism. The Irish seasons are Celtic not Christian.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702854#Comment_117702854

In primary schools run by the Catholic church, St Bridget's Day is what is used to mark the start of Spring. As you say, religious festivals play a key role in defining it. However, they are not the official seasons of Ireland.

Please see here regarding the official definition of seasons in Ireland...

https://www.met.ie/cms/assets/uploads/2021/02/YP-Fun-Facts-Meteorological-Seasons.pdf

And here...

https://www.met.ie/climate/climate-of-ireland

Ultimately, outside of certain primary schools, nobody else is pushing the Feb 1st calendar. Hence, the confusion on this thread as some people hold on to what they learned when they were 5/6 with religious fervour. After the shock/disappointment of learning the truth about the tooth fairy, easter bunny and santa claus, discovering the truth about the seasons has proven to be a step too far.

@dotsman

@dotsman

I regard Febuary 1st as the begining of Spring as did those people on this island before and after the introduction of Christianity.

Mentioning the Easter Bunny (a german tradition?), santa claus and the tooth fairy are irelevant.

I’m new to boards and can’t seem to post a link but Newgrange have a good page on it’s origins.

imbolc = i mbolg = in the womb

Festival that celebrates birth/motherhood and begining of the lactation of the ewes.

The fertility goddess was Bridget and she was co-opted by Christianity as St. Bridget. Christians would hold the belief that St. Bridget preformed miracles also.

Anyway on another note I quite enjoy the celebrations of the seasons and am glad that others do too whether they celebrate in a field or in a church, non-religious or religious. Enjoy life.

My mother who is Catholic (I am not by the way) keeps up a lovely tradition in May, a may altar. She places a picture of the Virgin Mary on a small table and keeps vases of wild flowers there for the month. I now do the same but without the picture. It’s a celebration of the begining of summer. I love it, gathering wildflowers.

Long live the celebration of the seasons ☺️

@dotsman

There’s a good article on the journal if you search for it on when spring starts. The conclusion seems for the meterologists its the first of march and for the astrologers (scientests of the stars/planets/space) it’s the first of February @dotsman so I guess we’re both right. Apologies I can’t post the link.

I would argue historically and culturally it’s the 1st of February.

It’s way too simplistic to say a Catholic primary school system alone is responsable for that. That’s a bit reductive. It goes back a bit further in fairness.

As you can see above, the warmest months from a meteorological perspective are June, July, and August, whereas we have found earlier that maximum solar radiation from the Sun occurs on May, June, and July.

There you have it. If you’re a meteorologist, spring begins on 1 March. If you’re an astronomer, it’s 1 February (or a week-ish later if you’re particularly pedantic).

Extract from that journal article.

Imbolc (Imbolg) the festival marking the beginning of spring has been celebrated since ancient times. It is a Cross Quarter Day, midpoint between the Winter Solstice and the Spring Equinox, it can fall between the 2nd & 7th of February when calculated as the mid point between the astronomical Winter Solstice and the astronomical Spring Equinox, in 2019 it falls on February 4th. The astronomically derived date is later than the traditional date of January 31st / February 1st.

the Mound of the Hostages on the Hill of Tara the rising sun at Imbolc illuminates the chamber. The sun also illuminates the chamber at Samhain, the cross quarter day between the Autumn Equinox and the Winter Solstice.

The Mound of the Hostages at Tara is a Neolithic Period passage tomb, contemporary with Newgrange which is over 5000 years old, so the Cross Quarter Days were important to the Neolithic (New Stone Age) people who aligned the chamber with the Imbolc and Samhain sunrise. In early Celtic times around 2000 years ago, Imbolc was a time to celebrate the Celtic Goddess Brigid (Brigit, Brighid, Bride, Bridget, Bridgit, Brighde, Bríd). Brigid was the Celtic Goddess of inspiration, healing, and smithcraft with associations to fire, the hearth and poetry. 

From Newgrange website

seamus

Given that 99% of the time when we refer to the seasons, it's in relation to the weather and the ecosphere, it's pretty safe to assume that the majority of people don't care about the astronomical seasons since they have little to no bearing on them personally.

In Ireland we cling onto the old pagan season system because it provides a nice cultural anchor and also aligns nicely with na séasúir as Gaeilge, but from a practical standpoint it's absolutely nonsensical.

Pages and pages of discussion seems to just be an attempt to retroactively justify an illogical standpoint.

@seamus

@seamus It’s hardly illogical if its based on science. I grow vegetables it’s pretty relevant - solar radiation! It pretty much determines that planting seed after the summer equinox is fairly pointless except for salads. Practically it’s very important for agriculture. It really depends on your perspective and what you do. Also culturally for me anyway I can’t speak for anyone else this is how I view the seasons.

Also as previously said both points of view are valid, meterogical and astromonical.

I do understand that for many people August can be the hottest month of the year and they go to the beach as kids are off school. Meterogically summer but astronomically autumn. 😉

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703650#Comment_117703650

Stopped reading at your definition of 'astrologer', tbh.

Astronomers, afaik, consider September 21st to be the start of autumn.

@Esel

@Esel a mistake, sure we all make them - astronomer is what I meant 🙄 apologies

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703743#Comment_117703743

So the yearly (and exactly set to the date) comments about grand stretches or evenings closing in are illogical?

Weather is changeable and varies widely. Hours of daylight are pure observational science.

Even the timing of our New Year is based on it. The mid-winter festivals, subsumed into Christianity as Christmas, is based on the shortest day of the year.

From that point on the days start getting longer and a new cycle (year) begins

dotsman

@gleanntrasna - But, Feb 1st is not the astronomical start of Spring either. With the Astronomical calendar, Spring starts even later than the meteorological one, typically starting on March 20th (equinox) and Summer starting on June 20th/21st (summer solstice). The dates vary slightly by year.

The only calendar that has spring start on Feb 1st is a mishmash of religious festivals/traditions promoted by Catholic primary schools in Ireland. No other body/scientists etc promote this calendar, nor is there any logic to it. You mention that some of these festivals have their roots in pre-christian Ireland. That is, of course, correct. However, A) these festivals were not necessarily marking a season as we would regard them today and B) the dates associated with the festivals today are not necessarily the same as those used in pre-christian Ireland. You have to realise that, pre-christian Ireland wouldn't have used the same calendar that we use today. For the most part, the celtic calendar appears to have been a combo of lunar cycles, astronomical and even 8-day weeks etc! The calendar you are referring to is a mishmash of pre-christian festivals, the roman calendar and christian holidays.

And I have no problem with that calendar being recognised for historical purposes. But it is not based on science, nor is it the official one used in Ireland today. It's a bit like the imperial system. Yes, its use was widespread in Ireland for a period of time, yes some people still use it today in relation to some traditions etc, but we mainly use the metric system and the metric system is the official system of measurement in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704174#Comment_117704174

Are you a scientist because, to poor lowly Biologist me, it makes perfect sense that available daylight and growth patterns make perfect sense to base a yearly structure off.

Temperature changes each year, available daylight does not which make it far more applicable globally.

Average temperatures vary massively in just a few hundreds of kilometers. The day when the hours of daylight/night peak is the same at random latitudes or longitudes.

Why do you keep bringing catholics into this? They only subsumed already existing, and observable, dates

I also get to look at my solar panels, available daylight hours declining. Definitely autumn

In fact, that's going to become more important as we transition to domestic solar. How much available daylight on a southern facing house. May, June, and July are best potential (you know, the summer months)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703934#Comment_117703934

Dara Ó Briain has a good way to remind yourself

AstroLOGy has a log in the middle, which is handy as it really is a steaming log of sh1t

@[Deleted User]

@[Deleted User] Brilliant 🤣

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704193#Comment_117704193

But does weather not impact available daylight (unless one lives on a balloon above the cloud line)? In terms of growth patterns, as a biologist, is it not dependant on the plant (and weather conditions)? This would make seasons very difficult to define and be consistent year-on-year.

Either way, it is not me you need to convince - I didn't define the seasons. You need to convince a huge group of scientists, who specialise in this, who state they have taken all this into consideration and still come out with Jun->Aug. All I am saying are that, officially, the seasons in Ireland are summer = June, July & August. If you want to change that, you will need to petition the government.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704874#Comment_117704874

You're the one saying that it's not based on science. It is, in fact, based on one of the oldest true sciences this island ever had. Thanks Newgrange

It's observable, measurable, and repeatable.

Weather is variable, sunrise and sunset are known.

I can get the sunrise time for August 2025. Can you tell me the weather for same day?

You can give me an average range based estimate, based on a rapidly changing climate, but you cannot guarantee.

Meteorologists don't own the seasons. They're free to say as they will but our calendars are based on available daylight and Irish seasons are too.

Oh and August are part of "summer" holidays as part of the start of Autumn harvest...