Kanturk deaths - Greed , Pure and Simple !

Ish66

Is Family land such a big issue that you would wipe out the entire family ? This coroners report is shocking, Fuckin Hell ? Ever heard of Share ? The utter greed of some people. I have seen it emerge in City family homes too when the red mist suddenly appears in the eyes of a previously quiet Family member, IE, I want it all............Gimme Gimme Gimme !

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/kanturk-tragedy-almost-beyond-human-comprehension-verdict-of-unlawful-killing-in-death-of-mark-osullivan-40718298.html

Strumms

thats way beyond greed... they are a pair of absolute psychos.

Leg End Reject

A tragic waste of life for nothing. All 4 in graves where money means nothing.

Ish66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708064#Comment_117708064

Lets kill him so he can't get it and then lets kill ourselves so we can't get it either...Brilliant Plan ! Perfect, Let's do it ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmmvtX0IUHU

calfmuscle

The part where they taunted the mother, who was terminally ill after killing her son is the most abhorrent. I regret reading up on this case. Its incredibly sick.

Ish66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708139#Comment_117708139

I am sorry I read it too..

corner of hells

I've given up with one side of my family over a piece of swamp with a fallen down cottage on it , apparently they all own it.All fcukin' five of them.And two of them never lived in it.

Even the solicitor I have is left scratching his head at them when trying to figure out their reasoning and logic.

ShatterAlan

If you kill for a patch of land, bejaysus, in Ireland, even if you have to murder for it then that's a badge of honour. If you walk away from such a conflict then your are a loser.

I've seen it. And it's revolting.

Jequ0n

It’s rather amusing because everyone involved was idiotic.

the true shocker is that a property in the middle of nowhere is worth 2m.

Immortal Starlight

It says the mother and cousin didn’t tell the guards that there was guns in the house but I’d say all farmers would have a gun in the house. It also says the guns were legally held so they obviously had licenses for them which could have been checked too. My god it’s such a shocking case. The things some people will do to get their hands on land and money. Absolute madness.

lisasimpson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708314#Comment_117708314

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708314#Comment_117708314

With the expansion of the dairy industry here in the last 10 years that would be normal value for land of that size.

Anyone with any knowledge of rural ireland would able to tell you of a local land dispute in families some disputes can go on for multiple generations

padd b1975

"No money in farming" is a hardy annual.

Me bollix there's not!!

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708401#Comment_117708401

An asset that you intend to work is not money in the bank until you sell. Then you can no longer work it.

It's funny people still don't understand that.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708395#Comment_117708395

And none of them have any part of it now. A stranger will come to buy it most likely.

Foolish men.

mariaalice

Fallouts over land and money do happen but in that case, it was mental illness, years of ruminating over supposed wrongs, taking sides, who brought what into the marriage, who is the favourite son etc does not help though.

mariaalice

A Poison Tree

BY WILLIAM BLAKE

I was angry with my friend; 

I told my wrath, my wrath did end.

I was angry with my foe: 

I told it not, my wrath did grow. 

And I waterd it in fears,

Night & morning with my tears: 

And I sunned it with smiles,

And with soft deceitful wiles. 

And it grew both day and night. 

Till it bore an apple bright. 

And my foe beheld it shine,

And he knew that it was mine. 

And into my garden stole, 

When the night had veild the pole; 

In the morning glad I see; 

My foe outstretched beneath the tree.

TomSweeney

I know people allready fighting over parents will - both parents alive and well and allready the children fighting over the land/house.

Ubbquittious

I tried to buy a house a few years ago. Asking price was 150k but had been up for a few years and didn't sell. I offered something like 95k, they didn't take it, someone else tried to buy it for even less. Asking price was reduced to 100k and less again over the course of about 2 years. Last I heard they wanted 70 for it. It deteriorated an awful lot in the mean time. Still not sold. Perhaps they have given up at this stage. They'd have had good offers well over 100k at the start when they listed it first but there was a bunch of siblings fighting over it and they all wanted more money

Stone Deaf 4evr

I think the hardest part for me to reconcile is the fact that the two of them premeditated a plan to get the mother and brother back into the house, prevent them from escaping , carried out the killing of the brother and themselves.

I can see how stuff can go awry in the heat of the moment, but its amazing that neither the father or the other son had any sort of doubt that this was the wrong thing to do.

We will never know what built up to this, but one would have to imagine that all 4 played a part in antagonizing the others to the extent that such a heinous act was felt as justified.

MisterAnarchy

Very sad case.

From what I have heard the farm was leased out and hadn't been worked by the family in years so I fail to see why the younger son felt he had a claim on it.

If he was in his late forties and had worked the farm all his life whilst the elder brother was absent I can see how I he might have felt aggrieved.

However he was in his early 20's, just qualified from college and had his whole life ahead of him with financial security, its baffling.

We will never know exactly what happened inside those walls.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709626#Comment_117709626

there is no need to imagine anything of that sort. you're trying to make it sound like the mother and son were partly responsible.

Montage of Feck

It's idiotic the way land is divided up around here, everybody expecting to get a site or more. Originally land was held by the clan and sub divided out to individuals for a set period but this system got bastardised under British rule leading to the twisted mentally of today, with famine, madness and violence in between.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_farm_subdivision

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709685#Comment_117709685

Wasn't the farm to be divided equally between her 2 sons...so none of them was being disinherited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709685#Comment_117709685

Land in Ireland isn't always about land, it's about standing and affection. We know we have a deeply unhealthy relationship with land here. This case is an extreme example of it but it's not such an outlier that we all don't know of families who have fallen out over property.

I don't think "greed" quite covers it, it's greed but it's also something else, a deep longing or a deep insecurity of some kind that as a culture we possess.

A brother killing a brother isn't so hard to believe, we have several myths based on it (Cain and Abel, Romulus and Remus etc) and we have developed Succession Laws to avoid brothers fighting over land etc. The father's role in it is harder to understand, imo.

Stone Deaf 4evr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709736#Comment_117709736

I'm merely stating my own belief that something does not escalate to the level of a premeditated murder / double suicide, plotted purely to make the mother miserable, without there being prolonged , intense arguing and breakdown in communication or lack of compromise beforehand.

The only way to get to the bottom of what led to this would be 4 accounts from the people who are dead, so absolutely any speculation on the events are exactly that - speculation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709805#Comment_117709805

It's a really interesting thing to ponder if it's some deep folk memory of the Famine alright. Iirc, the Gregory clause in the Famine Relief Acts dispossessed people who sought Poorhouse Relief, the goal was to force them to emigrate to America but the reality was it wiped out an entire class in Ireland. We are the descendants of people who saw the class below them destroyed. (I've also seen it argued that the Mother and Child Homes were a system to stop illegitimate children having a claim on family farms, we are a deeply fucked up society when it comes to land)

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709868#Comment_117709868

completely unwarranted and baseless speculation on your part

Stone Deaf 4evr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709885#Comment_117709885

Baseless - absolutely.

Unwarranted - I don't know about that, there is value in fully understanding how events occur (regardless of the event), so that people can learn from them.

MisterAnarchy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709809#Comment_117709809

That is correct but it seems the younger son felt he was entitled to all of the land.

He was also due to solely inherit the fathers farm.

FlubberJones

Greed and idiocy... a terrible cocktail

Shame the lad with some form of intelligence had to die, since the mother was very unwell.

The simpleton father and younger son... there should be no grief for them.

TheMilkyPirate

Youngest son sounds like an absolute head the ball and a horrible person. Greedy and spoiled beyond belief.

MisterAnarchy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709868#Comment_117709868

The father was a mechanic at a local garage.

Very quiet and pleasant man.

People that knew him well were completely shocked as to what happened.

retro:electro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708139#Comment_117708139

They made the last few remaining months of her life a living hell. That is the saddest thing of all for me.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709917#Comment_117709917

Spot on. Disputes about inheritance are common, but murder/ murder suicide less so.

There are countless indicators that there was serious dysfunctions in the family. A good few things sound very familiar to me. It’s never as black and white as it first appears to be.

retro:electro

“Mark had feared so much for his own safety and that of his mother that he slept at the foot of her bed”

How sad. Just horrendous.

148multi

I think it was more about control, a neighbour of mine now deceased, a very pleasant and helpful man. Controlled everything about his wife, some neighbours thought she was snobby, but she was terrified while underneath the most beautiful and caring woman I've known.

It seems to me that they wanted to control what happened at whatever cost, I also am sorry I've read the article.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710084#Comment_117710084

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710084#Comment_117710084

The desire to control others is a mental health issue.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710008#Comment_117710008

tbf, we'd all be shocked if that happened to anyone, I wouldn't put any stock in a person being called "quiet and pleasant" in the immediate aftermath of his death, it's a generic phrase we use to not speak ill of the dead. If Pablo Escobar had been shot in (say) Athlone RTE would have found someone who'd say "he was a quiet and pleasant man, who was always willing to lend a hand to anyone who needed it." Unless of course he was "known to the Gardaí" which is of course code for "well, I'm not saying he had it coming but it's not a surprise to me he came to a bad end" but I don't think I've heard (or will ever hear) a direct quote on RTE in the immediate aftermath of a death where someone has said "he was an awful header, he'd bate you as soon as look at you and frankly, we're all relieved he's been offed".

HildaOgdenx

Truly horrific, and sad beyond words.

And now the land is there after all of them, and no use to any of them. It's hard to imagine how things went so badly wrong within what was presumably an ordinary family, at one stage.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709814#Comment_117709814

I hate this as a “culture” nonsense. Most of us don’t have farming land, even outside cities. For my siblings the agreement that the parental house will be divided equally which is probably common for city or town houses unless somebody wants to live there.

All that land is no good to any of them.now

Imagine pestering your dying mother/wife over it,id walk away at home before id carryon like that

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710056#Comment_117710056

I am seriously wondering why they decided to return to the house if they were so scared. This is something I really don’t get

retro:electro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710389#Comment_117710389

I was wondering that too. The article said they had only returned the day before after attending a hospital appointment in Dublin. Could be as simple as she wanted to be at home in her own bed, and thought maybe things had blown over. The poor woman. Up and down trying to get her treatment to prolong her life is taxing enough, never mind all of this shite hawking going on around her. I am so sad for what she endured.

spurious

She told shocked neighbour's after running for almost one kilometre that she had been left unharmed by the duo so she could suffer.

That's a special sort of sick.

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710389#Comment_117710389

I guess, perpetrator or perpetrators gain control as in any abuse situation, after that there is plenty of other factors in play, mental health, traditions, religions and list goes on, I can imagine it's hard for victims to escape it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710389#Comment_117710389

Happens fairly commonly for abused people to return to the abusers but also, even if you think on some level your son and husband are going to kill you, I doubt you really believe they are capable of actually doing it. It's a very hard thing to actually believe.

We'll never know but I wonder if her solicitor made her aware of the Court options like barring orders and safety orders she could have gotten and if so, why she didn't go for them.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710578#Comment_117710578

Seriously, I grew up in a family of that kind and still can’t understand why someone would stay in a situation like that.

Also, the murder/ suicide approach to make the victim suffer is generally only chosen when there appears no other option left, so the suicide makes sense. What I don’t get is why they decided to kill the brother because there was no way they could have gotten away with it.

Deise Vu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710627#Comment_117710627

I’m not trying to be funny but do you think these two psychos who shot their brother/son in cold blood would have said: damn it, we could murder him and commit suicide only for that court order.

They actually said” there’s your solicitor’s letter” to that poor woman after pumping a few more rounds into the victim.

Thd thread title is wrong, it wasn’t greed seeing as they got nothing but some twisted satisfaction out of torturing the mother, it was sick, depraved and evil. Pure and simple.

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710978#Comment_117710978

That solicitors letter that was sent to them must have some controversial wording written in it if they reacted the way they did by mentioning while committing that carnage at the house.

Deise Vu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117711014#Comment_117711014

I think probably controversial in the eyes of the beholders but not to normal sane people. I am flabbergasted that people are implying that the two psychos were triggered someway.

The land was let, it’s not like psycho junior was working it, he had just graduated from college. It was going to be split two ways but he felt that he should get more because the other brother was lazy. I struggle to think of a more twisted act. That psycho Hawe murdered his wife first which almost seems like an act of mercy compared to these evil bastards.

seamus

People stay/return for all sorts of reasons. In general we tend to have the biggest, most blazing, most vicious and hurtful rows with our families. But you reconcile because there is room in the relationship to do so and you still love them. It's a massive leap altogether from insane row to cruel and inhumane assassination.

Because ultimately what this pair did went beyond just getting him out of the way. It was cruel, designed to not be quick or simple, either for Mark or his mother. It's really, really hard to fathom at all how it came to that point.

My parents were always very clear that they would spend what they had, they would support us until we were capable of looking after ourselves, and from then on they'd spend how they please and enjoy themselves because you can't take it with you. They wouldn't be making an effort to leave anything behind. Whatever is left when they're both gone will be divided equally, no ifs, or buts or entitlements. So I find it really, really, difficult to even begin to understand what goes through peoples' heads when they get so worked up about inheritance.

In my mind, ideally we would do away with wills in general as an archaic remnant of a more selfish mindset. Instead, wills could be made to cover the distribution of things without value (keepsakes, etc), to provide for things like guardianship, and express any other wishes. Items of value; assets, land, bank accounts; would be divided along fixed rules (similar to intestacy). If someone wants a particular individual to have a particular piece of land or a larger share of some money, then they have to make arrangements to transfer it before they die.