Kanturk deaths - Greed , Pure and Simple !

Furze99

With regard to the OP, I heard the report on the day of the coroners inquest. What struck me was that we might only be hearing one side of the story. Apparently the father & son left suicide notes that presumably explained their part and reasoning. I could be wrong but it was reported that the contents of these were not disclosed to the inquest. On other hand, we heard accounts from the murdered brother and deceased mother.

So I wouldn't be drawing too many conclusions as to motive and so on without at least considering the other side of the grievances.

retro:electro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733220#Comment_117733220

We heard accounts from the mother and son because they are victims. Who cares about what paranoid twisted **** the two came up with in order to try explain away or justify their brutal actions. They’re both sick in the head, nothing they have to say about why they did it matters. There isn’t an excuse on earth that could justify what they did. Let their paranoid and toxic drivel never be heard, it made sense in their twisted heads only.

katiek102010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710830#Comment_117710830

If I can't have it all then you can't either mentality

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735006#Comment_117735006

You are right.makes you realise there is more at play than “just” greed.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734376#Comment_117734376

Correction, we heard one side of the story. It doesn't matter what you think of the actions of the father & son - they must have had some grievance as to how things stood, that drove them to take drastic action. I'd hope and assume that their reasoning & explanation is available to family on all sides and known to neighbours etc. But we as a public can draw NO conclusions on only hearing one side of the story. To do otherwise is foolish speculation.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709814#Comment_117709814

I can appreciate what you are saying. I remember coming up to the Leaving years ago and we were chatting about what we wanted to do etc. One lad said with a gleam in his eye, "Jaysus I'd love a lock of Land".

It's something I never forgot, it was almost a spiritual thing for him, making money didn't come in to it.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738090#Comment_117738090

Picking up a gun to solve this problem isn't reasoning, it's losing your reason, being deranged.

Sunny Disposition

One brother getting the majority of the mother's land on her imminent death, and all his father's holding when he died. And that still wasn't enough for him.

It really is incredible how little self awareness a lot of people have, how they can believe they are in the right in any circumstance. People need to hear dissenting voices far more often than they do.

The father and the youngest son were a pair of half wits.

pgj2015

The neck of the young brother is unbelievable. His mother could have left that land to anyone she wanted, it was her own decision. You don't have to provide anything for your kids in your will. They have no right to anything you leave in your will.

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117708117#Comment_117708117

He (father and younger son) was never going to get it by will or voluntary transfer and certainly would have been disqualified (had they being mentioned in the will) by law for killing or harming the land owner or any Beneficiary so ….

these guys had death wishes and wanted to torment the wife / land owner (who was dying anyway) by killing her son and beneficiary . Basically drag her and the innocent son down to hell with them

pure evil . the younger boys was brainwashed by the father and had his own sense of entitlement ..

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710627#Comment_117710627

Barring orders aren’t that easy to get ! The threshold is high as was the evidential burden

Big improvements since the 2018 reform act though

all due respect , district court judges are a law onto themselves too ! I Joe you can appeal them but so much time wasted

something tells me that a safety order in their minds (the killers) would be a scrap of paper not worth the ink that it was written on

Randy Archer

@Shesty

Fathers and mothers having favourite children is very common and more common that parents would like to admit , especially if there’s land or a family business involved

Perfectly possible the father did not have a good relationship with the eldest - rather common . He may have seen the eldest having a big career ahead of him and that the youngster (Also just qualified in accounting too) getting nothing and him seeing it as unfair

of course , to go out of his way to kill his own son ? Not going to even try to guess what went on in his mind

Randy Archer

“Makes you wonder why farmers are treated differently in divorce and separation of marriages , imagine telling a farmer getting divorced he has to sell the farm and give half the proceeds to the ex-wife or kids”

it’s pretty evident , it was handed down to him by previous generation of family and intended to be passed onto his successor (normally the eldest boy or in some regions the youngest)

Wifie in your example (not referring to this case) was married into The Firm, it be ludicrous to break up the farm on divorce - there’s be a lot of wandering wives going missing never to be seen again if they were a threat

in all seriousness though, this was a major major reason for the hostile opposition to divorce in the 1980s and not just church opposition . The 1995 and 1996 acts try to make dissolution of property in a fair manner for all

Randy Archer

“But if the father alone committed the murder/suicide....his remaining favourite son would get both farms...but maybe father and son were inseparable without each other.”

Wrong . Could easily be disqualified under Section 120 of succession act - unworthy to succeed .

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738731#Comment_117738731

If the father had willed his own farm to that son following his death... can't see a problem there...his mother was still living so it would be up to her who was getting her farm then as circumstances within her family had changed regarding her previous will instructions.

nj27

Why did the pair of them kill themselves I wonder. Probably a bit of a "what have I done" type situation. Scary that it went so far in the end.

meeeeh

It's sad. I'm not going to speculate what was going on in their mind but it's clear that there were years of dysfunction and domestic violence. Some people are just evil and the younger son followed in the father's footsteps. This was more than greed, this were two men who demanded to be obeyed and couldn't cope with not getting their way.

banoffe2

Just speculating here, could this terrible tragedy have been avoided

If the mother or solicitor son had notified the Gardai that they were in fear for their lives

The solicitor was sending texts to his friends telling them of this, the fact that he was a solicitor he would have the legal knowledge what do do in situations like this

Sometimes I think it can be fear and pride, people don't want the local gardai to know what's going on behind closed doors, and abuse thrives on secrecy, even though a cousin did go to the gardai and alerted them of how serious the situation was.

Also read that the wife an only child, only inherited the farm in 2013 following her mothers death, strange it wasn't signed over long before that, so there is a message in that too imo.

Her husband's name was never added to it, it was on the wife's name, he had his own farm which he inherited, much smaller acerage and poorer land same here, only his name on this farm

Neighbours would say the couple rarely went anywhere or spent any money on home improvements despite the two good incomes and income from letting the land.

There is a strong possibility her cousin with whom they stayed with, will possibly get it, then who would want that legacy, some would say there is no luck in the place.

3 members in one family murdered

Heard of and read about another farm feud where a farmer who lived with his widowed mother, sister and brother, wanted to marry a local girl

In those days a dowry was expected to pay off the others still living at home, the bride to be hadn't the amount required for the dowry so again a lot of rows and bitterness at home and all 4 living off the farm and under the one roof.

The son who was to marry the local girl decided he was going to put a stop to all the rows, and he was going to marry the love of his life regardless.

he told the neighbours that the mother, brother and sister had to go to another County in an emergency to help with sick relatives, and would be staying to help for some time, no phones people knew no better.

He murdered his brother and sister and got his brother in law to be to kill his mother, then emigrated with his wife.

Some years the well where the bodies were buried, dried up, so digging and repair works started, and up came the three bodies.

The gardai followed him to New Zeland where he settled with his wife and family, he tried to deny it but the death penalty was served after a court hearing,

This story has been published and there was a documentary on TG 4 about it some years ago, sorry for the long thread.

pgj2015

There wasn't 3 murders, only 1.

retro:electro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738090#Comment_117738090

Their reasoning doesn’t mean ****. The whole family is dead because of them. I don’t ever want to hear their side, they’re deranged

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739498#Comment_117739498

Would yous not think,there could be something learnt to prevent similar happening again?

Easy to foam.at mouth outraged,but in reality it offers little in way of learned experience,if we as country dont learn from this,surely we are doomed to see it repeated??

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739498#Comment_117739498

But if the situation was the father and son only took their own lives with the same notes in their pockets outlining their greivances.... it would turn the spotlight on the mother and remaining son for not trying to resolve the issues that were there.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739577#Comment_117739577

They shot a family member in his bed. Stop trying to excuse them.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739566#Comment_117739566

Wrong thread. This one is for torch and pitchfork fanatics only. Nobody is interested in why this happened.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739604#Comment_117739604

Sure you think this whole thing is a comedy. Just because you want to have some kind of odd kinks about murder/killers most decent folk dont.

retro:electro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739566#Comment_117739566

Learn what? How to not be a greedy cnut and kill yourself and your family after you don’t get what you want? The only thing to learn is how not to behave when your mother is after being given a terminal diagnosis

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739616#Comment_117739616

There might be some lessons for the Gardaí and that's about all.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739616#Comment_117739616

And thats not even a lesson 99.9% of people need to learn.

And if you are part of the 0.1% then you need to get help.

Beechwoodspark

Something about the look of the father and especially the younger son...he doesn’t seem all there in the photos I’ve seen.

If the wife beating rumours are true - awful.

RIP to the older son and of course the mother.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739616#Comment_117739616

Learn their taught processes and preceived grievences,which lead to this situation escalting to level it did

And launch a state funded agency to intervene/mediate to prevent similar happening again??

Theres people in ireland tonight,likely going to bed with similar grievences,any assistance/help to prevent this happening again are meritable imo,but its simply unattainable,if you demand one side,whom were spurned into compleltly excessive actions, not be heard,nor listened too.......deosnt make much sense to me

retro:electro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739577#Comment_117739577

Are you insinuating that the mother was hiding something?

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739623#Comment_117739623

The gardai will have the suicide notes and all reports they need.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739645#Comment_117739645

I meant lessons for future situations where they here of possibly bad situations in family homes where there are licensed firearms.

I hope the notes that pair left behind are never read into any public record tbh. I don't think they deserve any say after what they did.

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739644#Comment_117739644

How could you come to a conclusion my post infers that

retro:electro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739667#Comment_117739667

Oh so you’re just talking shite then? Why bother? We know the facts. Whatever they have to say is twisted and irrelevant. Who wants to hear the deranged words from two lunatics who thought it made sense to kill themselves and their family member in order to prevent them inheriting a piece of a farm. I think it’s safe to assume that anything they have to say is paranoid and deranged lunacy. Anything they have to say would defy logic in a rational person’s brain.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739615#Comment_117739615

I do not, I just find it amusing how barely anyone shows any interest in why this happened, because the preferred approach is to label someone as “evil”. Life must be so simple.

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739685#Comment_117739685

Maybe YOU think YOU do know all the facts...I certainly dont and don't pretend to know either.

retro:electro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739701#Comment_117739701

If there was anything substantial in the notes it would have been included somewhere along the line. Maybe there is no “reason”. Maybe it’s as simple as they were two greedy imbeciles and greed and jealously ate them alive, and I’d wager anything they wrote in their suicide notes was more paranoid drivel that blamed the mother for not giving all she had to the youngest. I highly, highly doubt there was anything in there that would make people understand why they did this or prevent future, equally disturbed lunatics, from doing the same.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739724#Comment_117739724

Often people think thought police is an actual thing.

Maybe we can get some precogs to foresee crimes like this.

The only realistic way this may have been prevented is if the guards had taken away firearms once a complaint and restraining order was made. Anything else is just fantasy.

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739755#Comment_117739755

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739724#Comment_117739724

Would having no firearms being available in the household lessened their alleged grievances in a obviously divided family unit and it being a farm...lots of potential weaponry lying around

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739799#Comment_117739799

It would have lessened the chances of mass destruction yes.

Electric Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739799#Comment_117739799

It would have been just another beat her head in with an ax scenario. The heart wants what the heart wants...

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739724#Comment_117739724

There is no conceivable "reason" anywhere in what happened

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739799#Comment_117739799

Tbf gaurds do.confesicate firearms regularly around the country at any sign of trouble and they never return em

byhookorbycrook

Grew up close by . If it wasn’t by gun , the murders would have happened by another instrument. Can we let this lie, please ? Too many people have been seriously impacted already .

screamer

I haven’t read up all the details and I don’t really want to. From what I have read, it seems to me to have been a spiteful tit for tat. She took away that which they treasured most ( the farm) and they took away her most treasured son and left her alive to suffer terribly on top of her terminal illness. Awful.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739695#Comment_117739695

I’d be interested in their attempted reasoning purely out of morbid fascination. But nothing they would say would make me have any sympathy with them or what they did.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740451#Comment_117740451

It’s not about sympathy. It wasn’t a “normal” reaction to a dispute, which suggests that there was a complicated background. It’d be a shame if the only lesson taken from this was that the perpetrators were pure and simply evil.

Ish66

I would love to hear the logic behind their ''Let's kill ourselves'' conversation. Interesting theories abound.