Kanturk deaths - Greed , Pure and Simple !

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738967#Comment_117738967

Seeing his wife inherited the farm in 2013...maybe being the husband.... maybe felt his name should also be added on the the title/deeds at that time ...that expectation could cause resentment that could explore at any time.

FoFo1254122

Mental health issues affect every family in Ireland, as a country we have A lot of mental health issues here.

but government after government do **** all about it because of the huge costs that would be involved, cost would billions per year in providing services and assistance to people who suffer with their mental health and their families. Impossible to get help

if you think about it logically it’s not evil or greed that caused this sad case, but very poor mental health issues. A good friend of mine had a serious mental episode 2 years ago and had to be sectioned - he can never be left alone with his children again, doctors believe he always had issues but these grew worse over time. I knew that man all my life but was astonished when I heard this. It scared me.

I can only guess but I assume the father/son on this case had developed some shared delusional disorder. very sad case

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738793#Comment_117738793

He (father) didn’t though ! Stick to the facts of the case .

Also, there was nothing on the facts of the case that said that the parents were divorced or judicially separated . In that situation , until the other spouse legal right share has been revoked, their legal right share takes priority over anything that’s mentioned in his will (section 111 of the 1965 Act)

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738578#Comment_117738578

Yes and no

If it can be proven (high threshold) by the child that the parent failed to properly provide for the child during the lifetime of the parent … the child can make a successful application before the court challenging the will - Section 117 of the Succession Act 1965

Refrain from expressing opinions on topics that you know little about - some gobshite might actually swallow what you said

Randy Archer

you can tell who doesn’t own land and never will inherit land . clueless 😂

land is always worth killing for ! The trick is to get away with it , reasonably well in tact .

Bull McCabe

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117741067#Comment_117741067

It was reported that the father had willed his own farm to 1 of his sons...and if his wife had passed away before him ....his will instructions I presume would be legal after his death....

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117741159#Comment_117741159

if she passed away first all would be fine . Even if she didn’t pass away first , she very well might not challenge the will and would be more than happy that one fo the kids got the goods .

However , if she did survive and she didn’t waive or lose her rights to a portion of his property in the will , that might cause issues as she’d be within her right to rely on her statutory rights to over rule part of the will

Moral of story, make sure every scenario is covered when you have property and family and up date it regularly

What I’m responding to is to rebut the assumption that x makes a will he or she can do what they like . For most part that’s true , but not always

however in general , (and not touching on the case)

man makes a will. Gives all his property to someone . Refuses to give anything to wife for whatever reason

Wife is still the lawful wife , she doesn’t get a penny from said will , she never renounced her statutory rights while he was alive (loads of spouses agree not to bequest the other and give to the kids ) and doesn’t lose her statutory right via Judicial Separation or divorce or doesn’t become unworthy to succeed (eg Catherine Nevin) wife gets priority over everyone else mentioned in the will to the value of her statutory entitlement

it’s one of the rare times that the law will ignore the testators intentions

lesson for the day :

if you are at a point when making a will, AND even if the wife is financially sound , AND you want to bequest the kids of your assets that are NOT held jointly with the wife (normally the family home , excluding farm land , who gets that asset automatically on your death and it doesn’t form part of the will)

get wifie to irrevocably waive her entitlement to your estate in writing

for many reasons , good and bad , wifie might need to claim her statutory entitlement on your death due to their financial needs . Causes headaches for the beneficiaries who may be very disappointed when the estate is diluted to meet the wife’s statutory right if she insists on it

This gets messier if you have broken up with the wife but no judicial separation or divorce has concluded

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117741185#Comment_117741185

If that's your argument..are you also saying her husband would be entitled to part of her farm if things went as normal and she having a terminal illness leading to her ultimate death before him even if she wanted to will it to both sons

maestroamado

I go to church on a Sunday

The vows that I make, I break them on Monday

The rest of the week, I do as I please

Then come Sunday morning, I pray on my knees....

I remember this when i think of us as a people... I have no view on this case as i always avoid these depressing stories..

I think we are very selfish as a people. I have seen quite a few where there were obvious difficulties within families resulting in suicide and no-one ever tries to make any effort to ask "how are things going"

We wait until after the event and do "darkness into light" and pray. We need to be more pro-active and open as a people...

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117741185#Comment_117741185

But in this particular case the husband know his wife had terminal diagnosis so he'd outlive her so your argument doesn't matter

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117741222#Comment_117741222

the right to a spouse to a legal right share of the other spouses estate applies to both husband and wife provided that

(a) the right was not extinguished upon judicial separation or divorce or separation agreement or

b) the surviving spouse did not , during the life time of the deceased spouse , waive their entitlement to the estate - often done to protect the inheritance of the children or the surviving spouse will have their own assets and or shall be well provided on the other spouse death because they become the ultimate owner of any assets held in joint names eg family home and or joint bank account

c) doesn’t fall foul of section 120 ala Catherine Nevin . It should be noted that if say wife committed treason by attempting to kill their spouse but the spouse survived , and weirdly that spouse still decided that that Harriot should be looked after when he dies , any amendment to the will to that effect should be fine

in your scenario, she would need to get him to waive in writing his entitlement under the legal right share provision - be be in writing and and done without undue influence or pressure etc

Even if it wasn’t done , it’s totally open to the surviving spouse NOT to take the legal right share when called upon by the executor (often the surviving spouse lol) and just do without

We don’t know whether this was done in that case ; or whether they had a judicial separation etc

scary if you have a vindictive spouse ! Worse you are estranged and no separation or divorce is in place . Could always call a hit man , cough

Neyite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739724#Comment_117739724

If the domestic abuse rumours are true then we know all we need to know to learn from it- we need to reinforce the message to people that DA is typically generational. That staying together 'for the kids' only usually breeds some very fcuked up adults who either become abusers themselves, or are drawn to abusers in their own relationships because it's all they know and the cycle repeats itself. You've still got people who think that abusive people can change or be changed, or that relationship counselling will help. Or that splitting up will harm the kids more than growing up in chaos and violence in the very place they are supposed to feel safe.

Supposedly the father only stopped battering his wife when his eldest was old enough to give him a taste of his own medicine. That must have rankled with the father that he could no longer terrorise his wife with impunity and it explains the intense hatred towards the son. The youngest sounds like he was a cut off the father and probably would have gone on to be equally as abusive in his own relationships had he not done the female race a favour and done himself in.

There's been enough data on abusive people to know that when things don't go their way, some try to justify wiping out the whole family. Because to them, they have this view that they 'own' the family and the people involved are theirs to do what they want with and dispose of any way they see fit. The only thing we don't really know is the trigger for it - why did the two decide it was best to kill Mark and them themselves. My best guess is that Anne was going to report the previous assaults to the Gardai with the support of Mark - or that the father and youngest feared she would, and would kill himself before setting foot in a court so she couldn't ever get justice. And if he was taking himself out, he hatched a plan to ensure the maximum punishment he could for her and the son who dared to stand up to him. If the Gardai had taken the firearms, something else would have been used instead. He along with his youngest, planned to destroy the thing she loved the most and make sure she was there to witness it.

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117741254#Comment_117741254

Best you get an adult to help you comprehend before commenting , Dougal. It’s being explained in detail . Ffs

Don't comment on what you know nothing about , please . People maybe be foolish to actually heed the ignorance

Some mothers do ‘ave them . lol thanks for the laugh !

1. wife makes will . Doesn’t include him - for perfectly legitimate reasons
2. They both might have mutually agreed but put nothing in writing to this effect ie waiving of legal right share
3. There’s no divorce , no judicial separation in place
4. Husband would have the right to insist on taking a portion of her estate on death , regardless of her intentions in the will , in absence of evidence to prevent him from the right (assuming he didn’t kill anyone in the family )

Legal right share is to prevent the deceased from disinheriting their surviving spouse

If he kept his LRS and didn’t waive it , all of his wife’s assets minus anything they shared jointly —- he’d be automatically entitled to HALF of her Estate despite not being mentioned in the will

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117741332#Comment_117741332

I know you think your a smarty pants!!....I posted about the fathers will and he leaving his farm to 1 son...if things went as normal...his wife wouldn't be on scene then ..but he would still be living and still own his own farm ....your the one bringing up his wife would have rights to his farm but unfortunately she have already passed away.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117741316#Comment_117741316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721122#Comment_117721122

The father and younger son should have just took their own lives if they wanted to show grievances in a violent way

Taking the other brothers life was pure evil

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117741078#Comment_117741078

In most cases kids are provided for and it doesn't look like the younger one wasn't provided for here, so the mother didn't have to leave him anything.

Don't tell me what to do by the way, you aren't a mod.

Potatoeman

Very strange story, don’t get why the youngest thought he should get both considering they both had jobs. If he was working full time on the farm and the brother done nothing then I might understand the entitlement.

bitofabind

This is the worst thing I've ever read.

So many horrific details at play. Clearly father and younger son were a pair of toxic, twisted, narcissistic bullies, and sadly you can't choose your family. There's a horrific "family first" attitude I encounter sometimes in Ireland, where we're expected to accept and shut up and put up with our family of origin. It does so many good people so much damage and can continue a legacy of generational abuse and neglect or outright horror. I greatly admire those who ignore that narrative and separate themselves from their family for their own protection / wellbeing and go their own way in life. Even when the fallout can be huge in the community.

Clearly Mark was a great and protective son to his mother and I can't even fathom the life of abuse and torment his mother suffered at the hands of her disgusting husband and her younger son. Scum

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742448#Comment_117742448

Cutting ties with one's family is about the hardest thing someone can do but sometimes absolutely necessary

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739644#Comment_117739644

Can you not possibly conceive that her statement of events after the tragedy might not have been affected by what happened? It would be perfectly reasonable for her to protect herself and frame the history of what she did and didn't do or say so as to reflect well on her actions and that of her murdered son.

But that in itself is not necessarily a reliable guide as to what may have transpired. There are two sides to the story and we've only heard one. So keeping an open mind seems wise................

Ish66

I think even if the mother died first the eldest would have had an ''accident'' sooner or later. His card was well marked regardless, Poor chap.

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742773#Comment_117742773

He might have got his retaliation in first , now that she’d be out of the way . He may have restrained himself and not go after them and defend himself , all for the sake of his mother , while she was alive - whether by court action or cops or violence (which would result in those fuckers winning - but dragging him down to their level)

you’d have to assume that he was under no uncertainty as to what his brother and father was like

cowardly bastards too. They waited until he was defenceless and vulnerable with no escape

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742830#Comment_117742830

Not really cowardly though, if I'm going to kill someone I want all the odds stacked in my favor, anything else is silliness. Despicable rotten act but not necessarily cowardly.

Randy Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742860#Comment_117742860

waiting to shoot someone in their bed , defenceless . I get that it’s extremely effective and I accept your point etc but it’s still extremely cowardly and then shooting themselves (obviously they had lot the plot and all sense of reality )

They could always have bought him out . act like men

Jesus it has all the elements of JB Keane’s The Field , whether the play or the film

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742973#Comment_117742973

Yer right, straight out of The Field

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742663#Comment_117742663

Smarty pants was the nicer version ..cos you are... it's a compliment.....going back to the fathers will on his own farm...he had 2 sons...was he not making a statement on that will...that he wanted his farm to be given to 1 son and not his other son as per his wishes....what happens legally after that is out of his hands.... he'd be entitled to naming only the 1 son he'd want to own his farm

PhilOssophy

I think nobody said - the mother and son were lured back to the house the night before by a text message saying "we'll sort it out in the morning" or something to that effect.

The younger son certainly was a special case of entitlement and arrogance. I also notice it took 6-7 pages before somebody pointed out that the father could have called in his legal right share, willed the land to the younger son and then he would have got 2/3 of the land in total plus the fathers own farm.

Also - the younger son would most likely not have been able to prove he wasn't provided for, he had got a college education from her.

The other thing I don't get is that nobody was farming it - so why did the younger son feel so entitled to it? If he had spent his years since school there, I would have said fair enough that he'd feel a bit aggrieved. If the son had a "vision" for the place, why wasn't he actively pursuing the farming route? Was his vision to sell it and life the life of Reilly?

I think it is more to do with mental illness than greed though - what good is it to any of them when they are all 6 ft under.

But there's a load of BS spoken above about this being "Typical Ireland" and the like. The vast vast majority of families accept what their parents do regarding their estate (as will my own I am 100% sure), I was born in a rural part and have heard in my life time of maybe 2-3 cases anywhere near where I was raised of family disputes over inheritance. And I also know of similar arguments over parents houses etc in cities so talk of this being a "rural Irish" thing is also BS.

The poor mother - I thought about her so much until I heard she had died. What a tragic way to end 60 years of hard work. RIP to her and her elder son, as for the other 2....well I won't post what I think but I don't buy the "never speak ill of the dead" mantra - they deserve to be spoken ill of.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742973#Comment_117742973

Shooting oneself isn't cowardly, it's just very violent and extreme behaviour

More likely power and control, of which greed was only an expression. The domestic abuse scenario certainly helps paint a clearer picture of what must have been the unimaginably awful situation that woman and her son had to endure. When all other measures to control and abuse fail, kill everyone. The fact that the sons had been poisoned against each other and the opposing parent in a Game of Thrones style narrative reminds me of the murder of Patricia O Connor a few years ago. It's not uncommon for children to have been so utterly poisoned by an abusive parent that they are willing to commit homicide. Such an awful tragedy God bless all of them, I hope they have finally found peace.