Novavax and the lack of Vaccine Choice

fly_agaric

Funny stuff. You'd sometimes think it was a soft drink choice, Coke vs Pepsi, Sprite vs 7up...now Pfizer vs Novovax.

Might be a while before there are hundreds of millions of Novovax doses in the EU sitting on the shelf waiting for toddler-citizens of our nanny states to make their informed consumer choice. Your chosen vaccine is temporarily out of stock. Please don't scream and shout at the cashier and make a scene.

Danno

Good thing we don't live in a total dictatorship (yet) where people have no choice Fly, but someday the nanny state will drive rules that kick you in the gut. I hope you remember your above rant then. Typed as I get my J&J jab.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800611#Comment_117800611

To expect to get a choice of vaccine (even extending to ones like Novavax, or perhaps Sputnik or Sinopharm etc that I remember other posters looking for) is a bit much. It is not a normal situation & these vaccines are not consumer products. I think we are quite fortunate to have any of them available in large quantities let alone a choice. The government not being able to give a choice of vaccine to people is not dictating IMO, particularly in case of Novavax (what started the thread) as it is not approved yet and has not been produced at scale.

Congrats on getting the vaccine (and you did sort of get a [more limited] choice in any case).

edit: I haven't been following it lately, but last I read there was no agreement between the EU and Novavax, seemed to be questions as to whether the very large quantities the EU would order (multiple hundreds of millions of doses, like the other orders) could be produced. I searched, and see there was an agreement made fairly recently - only this month https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_4061 and it is smaller, for 200m doses.

edit again: Novavax, not Nov'o'vax...

Former Former Former

As far as I can see, Novavax has been given to 40,000 or so people in clinical trials.

Pfizer will have made enough vaccines for 1.5 billion people by the time Novavax hits the shelves. Why is Novavax regarded as more proven?

And Novavax are already talking about booster shots, so I'm not sure why it's seen as a better alternative?

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800849#Comment_117800849

Novavax and Valnera are using methods quite similar to methods used in other proven vaccines. The mRNA vaccines are using new methods, hence the levels of hesitancy in some quarters outside of the anti-vax quarters and the "just jab me I want my pub pass" crowds.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800715#Comment_117800715

Congrats on getting the vaccine (and you did sort of get a [more limited] choice in any case).

Indeed a more limited choice, but still I felt I've made the best choice for me given the circumstances. If Moderna and Pfizer were the only options open I would be still unvaccinated. At least with a little rule-bending I am able to help achieve the objective of getting as many as possible vaccinated. If top ups are required I will once again look at the options and decide then at that point in time. Let's hope the J&J is one that doesn't require top ups, don't fancy ongoing jabs to be honest. Perhaps the Valneva one will be the jab to end all Covid19 jabs? Let's hope so.

dvdman1

Less than 25% of the world population is fully vaccinated. With this in mind why would choice of vaccine even be rational....get what's offered, dont become a Google educated scientist.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802528#Comment_117802528

There is 10% of the world in constant hunger and starvation, with this in mind why would choice of even food be rational, let alone Irish or Scottish Whisky. Don't be a hypocrite, practice what you preach.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801038#Comment_117801038

The proven technology that failed to produce a vaccine against any previous coronavirus?

1.5billion doses of Pfizer suggests it’s pretty safe

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803927#Comment_117803927

Do elaborate.

Also, can you pick up next Saturdays winning lotto numbers for me when you again jump into the time travel machine that brought you to 2050 and back in order to be able to say that "it's pretty safe". Nobody knows, that is a fact. Any of the vaccines or even them all or none could lead to increased Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, etc... in many years to come. We nor the scientists can say for certain.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803943#Comment_117803943

It’s clear you have zero understanding of what vaccines do.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803953#Comment_117803953

I do, they aint always 100% safe: Historical Safety Concerns | Vaccine Safety | CDC Do educate yourself.

random.stranger

This thread started with Novavax, but very valid points were made against that option, the reality is there are other options available for vaccines in the country, which could be potentially wasted, the system is already in place for distribution via pharmacies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800611#Comment_117800611

Got my Janssen jab a few hours behind you, should we be feeling guilty for being self entitled ##*!s who took vaccines that would probably have otherwise been binned, while people argue against using these vaccines to avoid waste?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795911#Comment_117795911

There is a blind faith out there that this thing is black & white, with right & wrong answers. We are adults, we are given disclaimers to sign before taking these vaccines, where we acknowledge the risks.

The public policy to open Janssen vaccines up only to over 50's appears to be a direct copy of German policy, Germany subsequently opened it up to all age groups. The narrative here was that it was going to be difficult to get rid of these vaccines, so the option for younger age groups to skip the queue was given if they take Janssen/AZ, I haven't seen any science to back the reasoning for this up, if anything it appears to be riskier for younger people.

As an "amatuer google scientist" I found this "wierdo" conspiracy site outlining the risks of Janssen:

https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/covid-19-vaccine/janssen/side-effects/

Very unusual blood clots

"Very rarely, 1 in 300,000 people may develop very unusual blood clots with low platelets. 1 in 10 of these people may die.

The risk of this very rare condition is higher in younger people."

I am a lot more comfortable taking a 1 in 3 million risk than risking an mRNA vaccine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803990#Comment_117803990

Give billions of people an injection of saline and some will die. Nothing is 100% safe. Hell of a lot safer than the virus, in all age groups.

And it’s not serious in kids, just like some of the other conditions we already vaccinate for in children.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807822#Comment_117807822

I am sure there is evidence of the increased risk with the mRNA vaccines?

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808631#Comment_117808631

1 in 10 who develop blood clots will die according to his post quoted from the HSE site, if 1 in 300,000 develop blood clots and 1 in 10 of those die, it's reasonable to conclude that @random.stranger is concerned about actual death from blood clots caused by a vaccine.

Lunacy to be concerned about that, eh?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808651#Comment_117808651

I am sure they have evidence the mRNA vaccines are more dangerous and it’s not just a misinformed rant from an inflated sense of their own knowledge

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808674#Comment_117808674

Conversely I'm sure you have the evidence that Covid-19 mRNA vaccines are overall exceptionally safe, not just in the now, but well - well into the future. Or are you going on a hope cast based on an inflated sense of your own knowledge?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808719#Comment_117808719

I am sure you will be able to establish a mechanism by which the vaccine will continue to have an effect long after they have left the body.

Over 12 months now in clinical trial patients and nothing other that immediate effects being shown

Have a read

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/vaccines-are-highly-unlikely-to-cause-side-effects-long-after-getting-the-shot-

fly_agaric

Got my Janssen jab a few hours behind you, should we be feeling guilty for being self entitled ##*!s who took vaccines that would probably have otherwise been binned, while people argue against using these vaccines to avoid waste?

I didn't really get Danno's point (about rule bending) in his response to me there either. It is (or was - if government/HSE are not going to bother administering it any more??) an available, approved vaccine. I thought it is there to be taken?

Now if everyone wanted to choose that one and would accept nothing else, there's a problem. Afaik the EU ordered enough of it for the whole population but the company has failed to produce anything like that amount. Ireland has only administered 231k doses according to Covid Tracker App vs 4.7m doses of Pfizer/Biontech vaccine.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808731#Comment_117808731

Immune/immunological reaction to injected lipid nanoparticles, could be one mechanism. We've never had these injected en masse before.

But a protein-mediated immune reaction is also possible. As you know almost all allergic reactions are protein-mediated.

The famous narcolepsy association with GSK H1N1 flu vaccine seems to be protein mediated as well (specifically immune protein).

Antibodies to influenza nucleoprotein cross-react with human hypocretin receptor 2 | Science Translational Medicine (sciencemag.org)

Or likely involved a reaction to both vaccine and the wild virus:

After searching for a mechanism for 8 years, the only plausible hypothesis seems an interaction between H1N1 wildtype virus infection and the administration of an adjuvanted vaccine.

Re: Pandemrix vaccine: why was the public not told of early warning signs? | The BMJ

There is zero evidence that spike protein translated from the mRNA cannot cause allergic reactions or start some sort of a negative pathway down the line e.g. in combination with the wild virus. Yes, currently there is no evidence, but absence of an evidence of a negative effect doesn't equal absence of a negative effect. Pharmacovigilance takes a while and unexpected events happen.

We will need more time and data from the global Phase IV trials which are currently ongoing on all 1 billion of us who had got mRNA vaccines.

random.stranger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117809352#Comment_117809352

The HSE never opened it up to the 35-49 cohort, but it looks like they are now quietly removing it from circulation.

Here is an article Wibbs & Danno have both linked to earlier in this thread:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/pharmacists-in-vaccination-centres-warn-of-doses-going-to-waste-1.4652314

I don't understand why we have posters on this thread so enthusiastically opposing giving people the option to use these vaccines, rather than letting them go to waste.

random.stranger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808651#Comment_117808651

I just want to thank you for quoting that post before the edit @Danno :)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808674#Comment_117808674

I don't have evidence that mRNA vaccines are more dangerous & never suggested they were. We are living in uncertain times, working with vaccines which haven't been fully tested, but have been allowed under emergency authorisation. I have a fundamental mistrust of anybody that can tell me with certainty that a particular vaccine is 100% safe, if that was the case there would be no need to sign a disclaimer. Credible scientists tend to deal with probability rather than certainty. That National Geographic article builds on a history of other vaccines, none of which are mRNA based.

I don't feel comfortable using an mRNA vaccine, I feel much more comfortable taking a vaccine which uses an older technology that has been used on the public over extended periods of time. I don't think anybody will really know what the best option is until years to come & we have the benefit of hindsight (but hey, that's just a misinformed rant from an inflated sense of my own knowledge).

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117812483#Comment_117812483

It's not enthusiasm, it is reluctant acceptance. In a system administering upwards of 300K a week at its peak some waste was inevitable. One would not expect a process of this size to be flexible enough to adjust for very small numbers of a vaccine whose cycle had finished.

random.stranger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117813990#Comment_117813990

I wouldn't have got a vaccine only for coming across this thread, there are other people in the same boat who weren't so lucky. I think it's poor form by the government, Janssen is one of the easiest vaccines to store, saying they couldn't distribute them is the equivalent to saying they couldn't deliver milk to a few shops around the country. They have made a conscious choice to not count the vaccines, to quote the Irish Times article "Sources working in the vaccination centres who spoke to The Irish Times said that in some centres there are vials which could provide more than 2,500 jabs if they were used.", if that's in some centres, I dread to think what the total figure is.

In the best case for government each of those doses will be replaced by an mRNA dose & not available for other less fortunate countries, in the worst case, each of those doses could potentially vaccinate a person who would otherwise refuse a vaccine. This is a failure of government in my opinion & a victory for the anti-vaxxers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117812422#Comment_117812422

So no long term mechanism then.

And phase IV, for any drug, is post market surveillance

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819805#Comment_117819805

Homeopathically, it could remain in the body forever, getting stronger with every píss.

aidoh

Has anyone had any luck in finding somewhere that still administers J&J or AZ vaccines?

I don't want to take an mRNA vaccine but don't seem to have another option now.

I also don't want to get into a discussion at all about why I'm hesitant to take an mRNA vaccine - just very interested in leaning into the experience of posters in this thread to see if anyone has successfully sought a J&J or AZ shot recently and, if so, how?

Cheers.

daydorunrun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826700#Comment_117826700

I was registered with 6 or 7 pharmacy's and never heard a thing. Like you I wanted to get vaccinated but didn't want the mRNA- It's the only show in town now though it seems.

daydorunrun

Just got appointment for J&J in Nutgrove on Thursday thanks to the advise from another poster (hadn't checked around for a while because I thought the J&J ship had sailed) - will report back if they allow me receive it seeing I'm one of that weird 35-49 yr old cohort!