Vaccination requirements to work in a tech job office in Dublin

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785610#Comment_117785610

Probably article 40 although that makes no such explicit provision. That being said our courts have accepted that the constitution protects such rights. I pulled the following from brophysolicitors.ie.

Throughout the years since the passing of the Irish Constitution, there have been a number of judgements in Irish law, which have established that there are a number of what are described as unenumerated constitutional rights. These are rights which are not expressly written in the constitution but have been accorded constitutional protection by the Irish Courts, these include:

the right to bodily integrity

the right not to have one’s health endangered by the State

the right to earn a living

the right to marry and have a family

guaranteed access to the courts

the right to legal representation

the presumption of innocence, and

the right to fair procedures in decision making

These all have their own caveats, none are absolute and some of them can come into conflict with others so there's a lot of room for interpretation by those more learned than myself.

With regard to employers, they have responsibilities to maintain a safe working environment and requiring vaccinations as a condition of employment in some sectors isn't unheard of so I would be surprised if more employers couldn't do similar during an ongoing pandemic.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785396#Comment_117785396

growleaves in a few months time:

schmoo2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785735#Comment_117785735

Like I say the powers that be are going softly softly and for the majority the restrictions are effectively lifted, would hate to see another lockdown, but am in favour of full opening (as long as it doesn't cause another lockdown).

usernamegoes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782519#Comment_117782519

I was more making a general point that it is not true to say you can ask anyone anything.

But since you mention it, vital interests would not be relevant in this circumstances. Recital 46 tells us that the vital interests must be very serious. The Irish DPC in it's guidance tells us that vital interests will not likely be relevant outside of an emergency situation. They have also told us in guidance on this specific matter that no legal basis exists outside perhaps a health sector.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785735#Comment_117785735

In 2020, Poland had an excess death rate of 150/100 k of population, below is an EU statics map from January 2020 to June this year.

Because of death rates some countries may be hitting herd immunity. But excess deaths may be hitting over 3 % or above of population

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785504#Comment_117785504

Have a read here: https://yalehealth.yale.edu/yale-covid-19-vaccine-program/information-special-populations-and-covid-19-vaccine

(Trusting that Yale is a good enough source for you- there are many others).

You will see statements like (bolding mine) "vaccination is recommended in most cases" and If you have an autoimmune disease, consult with your healthcare provider to discuss the risks and benefits of vaccination." a number of times.

The general statement holds: vaccination is recommended for most people, most of the time. 90%? 95%? Who knows.

But there are some who because of their particular health-issue combinations, and also their likely exposure or non-exposure to risk, will likely be advised not to take a Covid-19 vaccine, or perhaps not to take the ones that are available to them.

Good science is humble, accepts that we only know very little so far, and makes the best recommendations it can, given this. Statements like "absolutely everyone should take the vaccine, it's fine" are the opposite of this.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117784902#Comment_117784902

No, it is not a wicked thing to do. We were all locked out of these spaces prior to vaccines, we got the vaccine and made it possible to open things up and only those who made that effort should enjoy the benefit of it.

Like smoking in the work place, there have to be some norms.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204894/vaccination-requirements-to-work-in-a-tech-job-office-in-dublin

To answer the OP's question, the answer is that it is probably legal.

The clear reference to medical or religious reasons suggests that the recruiter has legal advice that it is legal so long as you avoid one of the nine grounds under the Equality Acts.

Discrimination can be legal. For example, a recruiter can lawfully decide that anyone who wears green clothing to an interview will not be hired (it would be more difficult with blue or pink clothing because of the associated gender status, but green is gender neutral).

Discrimination on the basis of vaccination status has been around for a long time. Travelling to certain countries required certain vaccinations, veterinary students had to get tetanus shots etc., and of course, we now need to be vaccinated for indoor dining, so requiring vaccination for certain activities appears to be legal, so long as the grounds under the Equality Act are avoided.

Where there might be a grey area is with existing employee. An existing employee could argue that they have done the job satisfactorily for years and this new requirement to vaccinate is unfair and tantamount to constructive dismissal. That argument doesn't apply to new hires.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786537#Comment_117786537

It is very bad. You're throwing your soul away, since nothing or no one requires you to demand that people be prevented from working and it probably won't come to pass anyway. When did it ever happen prior to colonialism that we forced people out of their occupations? Some people were blacklisted by some big construction companies but that's it.

The big effort was the sacrifices around the lockdowns, which we all participated in.

Its simply this new attitude, that everything can be dicated. But that's not how our society works. Its a new evil way of doing things.

I've read all your posts, and don't recall you saying at any point in the past 'Lock down now so we can bar unvaccinated people from their jobs later'. It is mindlesss, rolling scapegoating which you've just latched on to.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786590#Comment_117786590

People have a choice, they can lock themselves down by refusing to behave responsibly in society.

Nudists have little employment available to them although nudism is harmless to other people.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786613#Comment_117786613

This is an immoral stance to take.

Bass Reeves

Nobody is say we exclude people who are unvaccinated because they cannot receive a vaccine because of medical reasons. However society could not wait for large scale vaccination before moving on.

Any people who cannot receive a vaccine should be treated as being vaccinated. However there will still be limits to there life, just like in the reality of why they cannot receive a vaccine effects there lives. Trying to use these people as an excuse for to treats holdouts as the same is very wrong. These are the very people who need as many as possible to be vaccinated. So sorry f@@k principles.

beachhead

An employer can impose any contractual conditions on a potential employee that they see fit.The only exclusions under EU/Irish Law are on medical or religious grounds.Notions about "big brother" and not allowing access to medical records don't come into the negotiations.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786643#Comment_117786643

In what way is it immoral?

Arguably, the opposite is the case. If you refuse a vaccine, you are immorally protecting yourself at the expense of others. If everyone else takes the vaccination, you get the benefit of herd immunity without taking the risks of vaccination. Probably, the most selfish decision of your life.

godzilla1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786284#Comment_117786284

If they are near herd immunity through natural infection, then we’ll played

Its the only way it seems

England have had 5.2m cases

Guess how many confirmed reinfections ?

I couldn’t believe it

137

I can’t even calculate that percentage it’s so small

Hit by lightning odds

Compared to natural infection, these vaccines are absolute garbage

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787023#Comment_117787023

Sorry but I take all figures out of the UK with a pinch of salt, after all there listed COVID deaths are way less than there excess deaths

I like to see figures from reputable sources

godzilla1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787055#Comment_117787055

Like who?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786499#Comment_117786499

Assuming you are quoting the pertinent parts of the article that you think supports your opinion, there is a world of difference between “consult your doctor” and vaccine contraindication. The consult would include discussion on the type of vaccine recommended for those with AI/history of anaphylaxis. The GP would also explain that people with AI disease are at risk if they get Covid due to their underlying illness.

Of course people with underlying medical conditions should discuss with their Doctors, that does not however mean they cannot/should not have the vaccine, and the fact you have not included such a quotation from the Yale article indicates it does not support your opinion.

So I put it to you again, apart from the recommendation for certain times during pregnancy, you stated some medical conditions preclude vaccination, what are they and what is your source?

Is there anything more humbling than serious illness and death, particularly in people who are vulnerable/otherwise healthy/young?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785773#Comment_117785773

About 10% of employers in the most recent survey would push this but many acknowledge legal issues around it. A lot of the noise around this has come from high profile company proposals in the US where most states have barely 1 in 2 fully vaccinated, a situation that does not look like changing quickly. It will not be surprising to see any attempts to make it mandatory in the workplace challenged legally, even constitutionally. For now it's wait and see.

Happydays2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117779642#Comment_117779642

Or perhaps even to participate in client events in indoor dining settings.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787055#Comment_117787055

Wait are you just assuming that every excess death is due to covid and accusing them of falsifying the figures otherwise?

It was reported in the Guardian that there were 10,000 extra deaths from Alzheimer's in Wales and England due to older people left in isolation during the lockdown.

There was also an increase in deaths of despair.

Someone would have to look at every excess death, investigate it and assign a cause to know what's going on. Your personal covidmania is not the first and last word on excess deaths.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787023#Comment_117787023

Look at the data a bit more, due to lingering traces of the virus it's very hard to get a confirmed reinfection so the confirmed cases are those where the reinfection was genetically different enough to be able to confirm it, there's still 35k possible and 1.5k probable reinfections lists which change the odds a good bit.

This is also remembering that most tests will be of close contacts and symptomatic, so the real numbers are probably higher again (of course most first infections will also follow that pattern, so 5.2M is probably a good bit low a number as well).

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787954#Comment_117787954

I thought about this for a bit, 5.2MN first cases is still less than 10% of the population, implying there's a less than 10% chance of being diagnosed over the course of 18 months, the chances of getting it twice, even if no immunity would look to be 8/100 * 8/100, so about 0.64%, which gives about 34,000 people, which actually very closely aligns to the possible/probable/confirmed numbers, even if we half the possible and cut probable by 25% (18k) that's only hitting a 50% efficacy rate, which is probably less than vaccines (discounting that reinfection happens in less than 18 months as well).

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787948#Comment_117787948

These deaths are also due to Covid, as Covid is the reason people are in isolation. If the circulation of Covid can be minimised then these problems will also disappear.

In general, the idea of required vaccination is not new. The Health Act 1947 states

The Minister may by order declare that—

(i) it is necessary, for the purpose of preventing the spread of a particular infectious disease, that all adult persons should submit themselves to a specified measure in relation to their protection or immunisation against such infectious disease, or

(ii) it is necessary, for the said purpose, that adult persons of a particular class (defined in such manner and by reference to such things as the Minister thinks proper) should submit themselves to such specified measure.

and in terms of general anti Covid measures

Where—

(a) circumstances have arisen in which a provision of this Part of this Act or of any regulations made thereunder requires a person to take a precaution against the infection of other persons with a particular infectious disease, and

(b) such person has failed to take the precaution, and

(c) any other person has been without his knowledge exposed by such failure to the risk of infection with the disease, and after such exposure has been infected with the disease,

in any action against the first-mentioned person by such other person for damages suffered by reason of his having been infected with the disease, the Court shall presume that such infection was the direct result of the failure to take the precaution unless the Court is satisfied (and the onus of so satisfying the Court shall lie on the defendant) that by reason of the time of such infection or for any other reason it was unlikely that such failure caused such infection.

This could allow people sue employers in certain situations e.g. an employee of a pub could sue if they were infected by an unvaccinated customer since the pub is supposed to exclude such people from the premises.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788729#Comment_117788729

The problem with suing, with an airborne virus floating out, is that you may not be able to show definitively who it came from and you might even be the source. Not sure why people would see it as a suitable path especially if it were non-hospitalising.

growleaves

'These deaths are also due to Covid, as Covid is the reason people are in isolation.'

That's an incredibly tendentious assumption since lockdowns are not a force of nature but a controversial policy decision. Counting lockdown-isolation deaths as covid deaths is not what most people mean when they say covid deaths.

Lockdown is/was accepted based on simple cause and effect logic, rather than empirical proof.

Thanks for the excerpt from the Health Act but it is all a grey area at best. I don't know about the legality, I just say that bouncing people out of their jobs is wrong and you're wrong to agitate for it.

These vaccines don't even give sterilising immunity which makes the passports even more farcical. (Yes, I know they give % more protection than not. We're going ever deeper into layers and layers of hypotheticals as I said upthread.)

People are now starting to realise that they might be booted from work or barred from public buildings if they don't take umpteen boosters. Two, five, seven or 15 boosters this decade with risks (perhaps very small, but risks nonetheless) associated with each one? Who knows.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117787246#Comment_117787246

I'm not a doctor, so I'm not going to start naming conditions, or discussing details of them which actually need to be viewed in the context of a specific patient.

But it's patently clear that if the advice was "everyone can take a vaccine, consult your doctor about which specific one is best" - that' what the article would say. It doesn't. I just cays "consult your doctor". Simple logic implies that there are some cases where there the conclusion will be that the benefit isn't worth the risk.

As an 11-year-old, I was medically advised not to take the TB vaccine (I suspect due to some pre-exposure, but don't actually know). In the same way, there will be some people who are told not to take a Covid-19 vaccine.

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780217#Comment_117780217

this isn't quite accurate..

if you get covid while vaccinated (at least with the delta variant) your peak viral load is similar to a non vaxxed person catch covid

elefant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117791910#Comment_117791910

I was going off this latest study: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227713/coronavirus-infections-three-times-lower-double/

'The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others, due to having a smaller viral load on average and therefore likely shedding less virus.'

foxsake

unable to post links but bmj dot com / content / 374 / bmj dot n2074

Covid-19: Fully vaccinated people can carry as much delta virus as unvaccinated people, data indicate

was referenced in the media.

but I'll read your link now.

The science is new and ever changing. Opinons and views will (and should) evolve a lot . From a personal perspective I suspect in a few months time there will be a realisation that the vaccines aren't great and offer poor protection or in other words the expectation and reality are very different. That isn't to say they offer nothing just they aren't that great.

Anyway with 90% fully vaccinated beckoning there will be no excuse to keep any restriction soon . I think we can all look forward to that.