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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    No, I was responding to him saying he can't have an adverse reaction if he doesn't get vaccinated. Same way the majority of people who took the vaccine didn't get an adverse reaction to it.



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    oh and hot off the press here's more positive information feedback on boosters in from the Israelis showing them hugely reducing the risk of getting a Covid infection and secondly of getting seriously ill.


    Twelve days or more after a booster dose of vaccine made by Pfizer Inc. and its partner BioNTech SE, the risk of a confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection decreased 11.4-fold relative to people given only two jabs, researchers from Israel’s Ministry of Health and key scientific institutes found. A third dose was associated with at least a 10-fold reduction in the risk of falling seriously ill, according to the research released Friday.



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    yes. got that in the end

    then someone else decided to play semantics on the the term "adverse"....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    Depends on your definition of adverse effects. I know a lot of people had mild side effects, myself included, which is surely not that big a deal.

    Do you really believe people shouldn't get vaccinated, during a worldwide pandemic, because of mild swelling or minor localised pain for a day or two?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Well the question is whether people need to be vaccinated for a third time in most cases, especially with so few around the world who haven't even had one yet and where there may be untapped reservoirs of variants.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭floorpie


    The person (science denier) I responded to said that it's "patently not true" that a majority of people had an adverse reaction from vaccination. I'm using the definition of "adverse reaction" given by the manufacturer and pointing out that ~90% of people have an adverse reaction, according to their definition.

    Do you really believe people shouldn't get vaccinated, during a worldwide pandemic, because of mild swelling or minor localised pain for a day or two?

    Where did I say anything like this? There are potential adverse reactions for which you could legitimately choose not to get vaccinated, but localised pain obviously isn't one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭floorpie


    I'm shocked that anybody would answer yes to this question. There is as yet NO sufficient safety or efficacy data on boosters. I'm surprised too by the posters saying they'll trust their GP. You realise GPs are not qualified in any way to interpret "the science" here right?

    That's a press release by Pfizer about a non-public non-peer reviewed paper by Pfizer, not trial data



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,308 ✭✭✭Irish Stones


    Long Covid is likely to be a life-long condition and no treatments will ever be available.

    I'm in this situation for over a year now, and no sign of improvement at all, so yes, it's a life-long condition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,308 ✭✭✭Irish Stones


    How is that people can have adverse reactions to placebo shots that, as far as I know, should be of saline solution?



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    I'm sorry to hear that you're in that situation.

    I can sympathise in that I have people close to me enduring a debilitating condition since May of last year. (bad fatigue mainly but some other unpleasant symptoms also - is that your main condition too?)

    It is still quite "new" in terms of a medical condition (for this virus at least) and not all is understood at this point but the fact that this is widespread (and cynically but relevant, in wealthy countries) will mean that there will be focus on trying to find treatments for it, especially as the science moves on to have more scope for research past the initial focus on vaccines.

    The research so far seems to indicate that this is more than likely an inflammatory condition primarily so treatments to quell or "quieten" this can hopefully be foreseen to be developed.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,308 ✭✭✭Irish Stones


    Thanks glasso.

    I'm experiencing a very bad fatigue, as you say, an unnatural tiredness and weakness. There are days, or even part of a day, when I feel suddenly weak and tired and I would do nothing else but sleep. It can happen any time during the day.

    Also I have a constant mind confusion, what they call it the "brain fog", when I can't focus on anything and sometimes I don't know what I'm doing or where I'm going. Or I forget things I have to do or have just done.

    And a few other minor symptoms. And of all this since May last year, like the people close to you.

    I've been told that these symptoms might be related to inflammatory processes in the cardiovascular system. If things get chronic, I don't think there will ever be any way to treat them.

    Thanks for you interest!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Adverse reactions includes things like headaches, and they're assessed (in that trial) in the 7 days following injection. So I suppose they're largely unrelated, or perhaps the magic placebo effect



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    well I can only hope that "they" (doctors and medical scientists) can better understand this sooner rather than later and be able to diagnose things more specifically in people (a big issue right now as far as I can see) and use existing medicines more effectively on that basis (which would be the best start) and then maybe develop new ones



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭Economics101


    The inability of some countries to organise an efficient and fair mass vaccination programme is not a callous justification for doing nothing. I never said it was. What I implied was that before you rush millions of vaccines to some countries you have to make sure that they will not be wasted or used corruptly. That's a sad fact of life. You have to invest in staff training, logistics and other things for a vaccination programme to work.

    Some places, like Ghana may have what it takes, others (DRC?) almost certainly don't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,100 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    We don't know what reaction people will have with a booster who didnt have any initially.

    I won't be finding out personally



  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭virginmediapls



    Cheers, saves me having to click search on google!



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    you do know that you can't get a booster if you were never vaccinated in the first place 🙄

    it wouldn't be a booster, it would be a first vaccine dose.

    In medical terms, a booster dose is an extra administration of a vaccine after an earlier dose. After initial immunization, a booster injection or booster dose is a re-exposure to the immunizing antigen.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 975 ✭✭✭Parachutes


    I'm convinced that there are people who would take a vaccine every morning if given half the chance.



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Not that nonsensical. Some unfortunately do live in abject dread of COVID. We have some in the extended family and some posters would get one today if it were available, regardless of whether they need one or not.



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  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    other poster said that people would take vaccines every day "given half the chance"

    that is totally non-sensical and projecting that onto the fact that some people are afraid of getting Covid - maybe people who it could quite conceivably kill if they are older or have certain afflictions, or maybe people just don't fancy rolling the dice with Long Covid is almost as bad as the original comment

    people being willing to accept a booster vaccine does not mean that they live in dread - it mostly means that they actually want to get out and live life in the knowledge that they have a better chance than with no vaccine of not getting Covid in the first place (and by extension Long Covid) and secondly that if they did get it that they are not going to get very sick or worse.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭brickster69


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,100 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    I was referring to those who had no reaction to the initial vaccine.



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    it is known for Pfizer which is the primary vaccine in Ireland

    Testing of booster / third dose -> produced no worse effects that first or second dose on people who had received the two doses already

    25th Aug 2021

    Pfizer and BioNTech Initiate Rolling Submission of Supplemental Biologics License Application to U.S. FDA for Booster Dose of COMIRNATY® in Individuals 16 and Older

    • New Phase 3 data show booster (third) dose of COMIRNATY induces significant SARS-CoV-2 neutralizing antibody titers and demonstrated a favorable safety and tolerability profile
    • SARS-CoV-2 neutralizing titers against the wild-type strain one month after booster dose were 3.3 times the titers one month after the second dose
    • Pfizer and BioNTech intend to file these data with the European Medicines Agency (EMA) and other regulatory authorities around the world in coming weeks

    https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210825005638/en/

    The sBLA includes data from a Phase 3 clinical trial of 306 participants 18-55 years of age who received a booster (third) dose of COMIRNATY between 4.8 and 8 months after completing the two-dose primary regimen, with a median follow-up time of 2.6 months post-booster. The booster (third) dose of COMIRNATY elicited robust neutralizing antibodies to the wild-type strain in participants who were without evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection through one-month post-dose-three. SARS-CoV-2 50% neutralizing titers after the third dose were 3.3 times the titers after the second dose. The post-dose-three neutralizing titers met the prespecified 1.5-fold non-inferiority criterion for success and were statistically superior. Moreover, 99.5% of participants had a four-fold response after the third dose, compared to 98.0% after the second dose. The titers after dose three met the pre-specified 10% non-inferiority margin for the difference in the four-fold seroresponse rates.

    The reactogenicity profile within seven days after the booster (third) dose was typically mild to moderate. The most common events included injection site pain, fatigue, headache, muscle and joint pain, and chills. The frequency of any severe systemic event after the booster dose was low. The frequency of reactogenicity was similar to or better than after dose two of the primary series. The adverse event profile was generally consistent with other clinical data for COMIRNATY.

    Pfizer and BioNTech intend to submit these data to a peer-reviewed journal, as well as file these data with the European Medicines Agency (EMA) and other regulatory authorities around the world in the coming weeks.

    Pfizer and BioNTech Initiate Rolling Submission of Supplemental Biologics License Application to U.S. FDA for Booster Dose of COMIRNATY® in Individuals 16 and Older | Pfizer

    https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-initiate-rolling-submission



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,100 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    They also said the benefits outweigh the risks. I'd love to see you trying to argue that with my wife after she ended up in a+e from the 2nd shot with chest pains and breathlessness. 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭floorpie


    You keep posting this press release from the company that sells this product as if it means something.

    The most important part of this press release is:

    The sBLA includes data from a Phase 3 clinical trial of 306 participants 18-55 years of age

    ...

    The frequency of any severe systemic event after the booster dose was low. 

    It is an insufficient trial (like all booster trials so far) to correctly assess rates of severe adverse outcome. Boosters could have 100x the incidence of severe outcome of the 2nd dose, and this trial mightn't pick it up. The fact that they say rates of severe outcome "is low" already means that there's significant increase in severe outcome compared to the original Pfizer trial of 2 doses.

    Second most important thing is "non-inferiority" compared to what? It's not a public paper so we can't know. Until the paper and data is released, this advertisement is garbage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,156 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Given that we were vaccinating 50,000+ a day at the peak of the rollout, that must be incredibly unusual.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,156 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Looking at the charts of Israel vs Ireland vaccine rollout, we only have around 3% of the population fully vaccinated for more than six months (compared to around 50% in Israel), and that figure will rise to only 5% over the next month.

    So it seems like there's no major rush to start the booster campaign, and we can let Israel be the guinea pigs again. Even when we do start, we'll only need to boost around a million before the end of the year, roughly corresponding to the over 60s, assuming a six-month interval from the second dose.



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    It's the same data that is submitted to the FDA etc.

    Do you expect somebody else to do Pfizer's testing for them or something? Who else is going to have that trial data?

    Here's a study from the Israeli's on live booster shot (Pfizer) data which they already have being doing for a number of weeks - would they have altered it or something also?

    Israeli data for 1 million people, age > 60, 4 million person-days with no booster vs 3.4 million person-days with booster

    >10-fold reduction of severe illness

    ~11 fold reduction of infections




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,100 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    I've not seen the stats so can't comment.

    BTW.. Have you finished your shed yet? 😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭floorpie


    Do you expect somebody else to do Pfizer's testing for them or something? Who else is going to have that trial data?

    No, but Pfizer can release the data and paper as a pre-print, same way Moderna did.

    Here's a study from the Israeli's on live booster shot (Pfizer) data which they already have being doing for a number of weeks - would they have altered it or something also?

    This is the type of garbage that I'm talking about that comes from companies. Notice:

    1) the abstract says that the booster reduces transmission, but the paper never assesses transmission, and in fact purposely doesn't by only basing rates of infection on elective PCR

    2) it does not assess safety (when they very easily could have) but instead refer to previous safety data

    3) the study period is 12 days

    4) they say that rates of infection, and severe infection, were increasing exponentially during the study period of just 12 days

    5) look at the error bars in figure S5 for efficacy during the tiny study period

    Nobody should be taking any sort of medication on the basis of advertisements and hidden data, gathered using purposely poor methodologies



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,131 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    On the flip side there's plenty would argue ending up there on no vacination and never coming out. There's multitude of 'wish I had' stories.


    Hope she was ok and continues to be so.



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    over 1 million people in Israel have received the booster dose

    do you honestly think that they are not monitoring safety as a matter of course in Israel?

    they have a sophisticated IT system in their health service for tracking individual patient records

    seriously adverse reactions would have become apparent in this timeframe - yes 12 days. if you are going to drop dead of a brain clot it has happened in a short timeframe

    I'd trust Israel's confidence in the booster program and safety and 1 million people there having already received it over an individual on the internet with no evidence to the contrary, fluting on about error bars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    this is related and i am sorry if it was asked before.

    My second jab was July 1st and a week later i got Covid cert. I think i was told somewhere that the cert only valid for 6 Months after 2nd jab. Does anyone know if this is correct? or what the story within the EU is going forward. My decision will be based on this.

    I would not have taken the vaccine except for travel but i think i may have been wrong. I have a friend who is head-nurse in an ICU ward and they told me a few weeks ago that they had a patient around 60 who was a Covid patient and refused the vaccine... They were not impressed....



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭floorpie



    1 million people there having already received it over an individual on the internet with no evidence to the contrary

    Trust what you like. But you (Israel) say a booster is safe and effective, the onus is on you (Israel) to prove it. This paper that you refer to is THE study that aims to prove it and it doesn't. There isn't some other secret paper/data re: the study of 1 million in Israel, that paper is it, and it's garbage. Until a booster has undergone even basic assessments, anybody saying they're ready to get one needs their head checked.

     with no evidence to the contrary,

    My evidence is the paper you posted (from the article: files_publications_corona_booster-27082021.pdf (www.gov.il))



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  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    good to know internet man

    I'm going with the Israeli Health Ministry on this

    I've a feeling that they have their finger on the pulse of this much more than you do for 1 million plus reasons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭floorpie


    I've a feeling that they know a lot more about this than you do.

    Everything they feel is relevant is in the paper they published: files_publications_corona_booster-27082021.pdf (www.gov.il)

    If you're satisfied with no safety assessment reported, a 12 day study period, and blurbs from adverts then ok. You're taking "trust the science" to a whole new realm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,156 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    At the moment I am think it's just Croatia and Austria that have decided to expire the cert, and in those cases after nine months.

    https://m.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-news/boosters-for-holidays-twoeuropean-countries-have-set-vaccine-expiry-dates-for-travellers-40771024.html



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    you have a massive anti-vax post history, whatever the agenda is I don't really care

    to me that makes you about as reliable a source of opinion on vaccines as Gemma O'Doherty and Delores Cahill.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭floorpie


    you about as reliable a source as Gemma O'Doherty.

    I'm referring to the paper you posted only. My post history regarding vaccination also refers to the papers and data from manufacturers only. I believe my criticisms are accurate and relevant, and you can check yourself, instead of trying to find problems with my post history.



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  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    not sure why you waste spend so much of your time on this trying to come up with purely negative vaccine arguments from said "papers"

    very strange indeed.

    hope you're ok hun



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Senior officials Marion Gruber and Phil Krause leaving the FDA. Apparently, "they're frustrated that CDC and their ACIP committee are involved in decisions that they think should be up to the FDA" and especially concerned about "booster shots."

    If they really have concerns, you'd hope they would speak out about what exactly they are, as millions try to figure out whether they'll be wanting to get them or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭brickster69


    It's like a comedy show. Countries giving boosters to everyone without knowing what the hell is going on with them. eve the CDC Director admits on TV they have no data apart from Alpha variant. a bit of hope though.


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭floorpie


    not sure why you waste spend so much of your time on this trying to come up with purely negative vaccine arguments from said "papers"

    You posted the results from the "papers" and I read them. Why'd you post them if not for people to read? Bizarre

    hope you're ok hun

    Embarrassing.



  • Posts: 18,962 [Deleted User]


    The Israeli's will have plenty of data for the anti-vax muppets soon enough - it's already coming through.

    Already a million people there have had it for more than 2 weeks and they haven't dropped dead in the streets.

    Has already shown dramatic reduction in Delta infection rates and serious illness + death for those who have received the booster compared to those have not.

    Has it been shown to be riskier than a second dose - no it hasn't

    It may have the anti-vax brigade jizzing in their pants with hyperbolae but there is absolutely no evidence that a third dose of the exact same vaccine already administered and tolerated six months later again has any more risk involved than a second shot

    It definitely saves lives but that's not what everybody wants if you read this thread - the bizarre agendas of some people confound, spending their days following twitter anti-vax twats and looking for any old crap to repost




  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Boghouse51


    Id of thought we should be getting Back to normal now .

    Doesn't the fact we are seeing loads of positive tests and death not suggest we are far from getting back to a normal life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭virginmediapls


    Jfc Floorpie and Boghouse are actually...


    Christ, give me strength



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, it suggests that normal life will have to resume regardless, and we should keep in mind that there is a pathogen out there with known vulnerable groups, assess our own (and our families') risk, and act accordingly.



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