4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825930#Comment_117825930

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825645#Comment_117825645

So the answer to answer my question is, you don't know.

Now I'm assuming at either end of your "gender spectrum" there is male and female? Everything else is in between?

And three and four year olds do use pronouns, ones they are taught. He is for a boy, she is for a girl. They don't use zir/see unless instructed to.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825988#Comment_117825988

🤣🤣

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825859#Comment_117825859

A lot of trans people I know will be able to talk about feelings around gender from an early age. I think it's common for children to know and I just don't buy into this being some mysterious group of TRAs forcing an agenda onto schools to trans up the kids.

You may recall, I entered a similar thread here about a year ago and had a lot of questions. I've done a lot if reading and speaking to people since.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826032#Comment_117826032

All antidotal of course .......

As I said earlier people would start saying I know this many trans people and someone else will say I know this many ...... Spin ,rinse and repeat ...

And no experience of 3 year + old children it's quite obvious

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826007#Comment_117826007

I think my answer is a little deeper than 'I don't know'. I said I believe it's a spectrum, that could even change over time for people. So this might even mean that there isn't a finite list of genders. As @[Deleted User] pointed out that would technically mean a lot of people are trans. Well maybe even trans/cis are labels that serve little purpose? How about that?

Regarding your pronouns (I'm not sure what your hangup is tbh) but the ones you mentioned are pretty rare. Most people I know stick to she/he. Some people prefer "they" (personally I find that a touch confusing at times because I often think of a group, but that's just the way I was taught in the 80s).

Once again tho, I really didn't read anything in the article that is somehow promoting or encouraging people to "become trans". I don't know what you've been reading to find that impression.

This seems a way of allowing more support for children who are 'trans" (in quotes because of the spectrum comment above).

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826044#Comment_117826044

If someone has a discussion where they need to resort to implying other people are talking sh!t then it says more about them the person being accused.

It's boards.ie, it's all anecdotal or opinion lol

I went out my way to get to know a lot of trans people, maybe some others should do the same instead of reading the daily mail.

Incidentally, you don't me. You don't know my reasons for exploring this topic. Could be personal, could be family, could be friends with children, could be other reasons I'd rather not go into on a place like boards.ie, so I'd thank you to keep the petty comments out of it tbh (although, again, it's always interesting to learn how other people's minds work!)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826045#Comment_117826045

So, which pronouns do you consider legitimate? Rare or not, they "exist", so are they as legitimate as the next?

Actually genders too. What are "legitimate genders" in your opinion? Can a 4 or 5 year old claim to be any type? If not, why not? If they are infinite or on a spectrum and can't be counted, do we have to give credence to any whim of a child who feels they should have been born as anything? I mean, how can you discount a child feeling they are zebrakingendered? Should they be given as much legitimacy as those who claim to be female when born male?

Why is it that most pro trans rights advocates usually only ever deal with the male to female or vice versa? The two ends of the spectrum. Does that not indicate that it has a correlation towards gender and sex being intertwined despite claims that they are wholly different?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823554#Comment_117823554

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823433#Comment_117823433

So you accept there is no force being used. Grand. Case closed here, too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

You have changed from 'me' to 'most likely me' - based on what? Do you know me,

I've said im open to all possibilities, and the child isn't even mine - I don't have the right to force it let alone the will.

I saying let the child develop naturally and if it's a phase it'll die our. Kids go through phases ask the time - how else do they discover who they are and what they like? Again - how is this forcing?

If you dunt want to be condescending to, then don't make irrational assumptions about other posters and what they are 'likely' to do ,and answer their questions honestly and directly.

As for the number of genders; I'd argue three - male, female, neutral. But that's just opinion, fell free to disagree.

That's as long as you're not going to respond as if the question was 'how many biological sexes are rhere' though.

Question being discussed here though us not how many, its who choses the gender and who's allowed to express it.

Gatling

@[Deleted User]

Why is it that most pro trans rights advocates usually only ever deal with the male to female or vice versa? The two ends of the spectrum. Does that not indicate that it has a correlation towards gender and sex being intertwined despite claims that they are wholly different?

It's the Facebook effect who have 100 + genders to select from when setting up a profile , there is only two genders (not including intersex) ,yet for the last few years there has been a massive push to convince us that we have Barbie on one side and GI Joe on the far side and 12 + others in-between ,

Neither Barbie or Joe have any actual gender or gender specific organs 😲

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826083#Comment_117826083

I really think you are overthinking it. I'd recommend staying away from the extremists (the obnoxious TRAs and the Daily Mail etc).

I gave my opinion on the subject. I will address anyone by how they ask me to - which is usually he, she or they. I haven't met anyone who has requested different, but if they did I would respect that. Your extreme examples, while amusing, don't really add anything worthy to the debate as they aren't really grounded in reality (or not one I have experienced - and when I say I have really went out of my way to speak to a wide range of people, I mean that. I wouldn't dare to suggest you should try the same, but I would recommend it - its way way better than getting all caught up in weird examples and nonsense on boards.ie - it might even be fun!).

The science on this is unclear - its the nature of science that theories and research is conducted before conclusion can be drawn. Its obvious that from a biological point of view trans people exist (and I use trans in the generally accepted term, while also acknowledging that maybe this itself is inaccurate). How we support these people is changing (At least its moved form ridicule to some level of acceptance).

(And remember - correlation does not imply causation - but I am sure you know this).

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826162#Comment_117826162

You keep stating your opinion as fact - what is the facebook effect? Where do you get this "massive push" from - I think you need to check in with your media sources - I don't know anyone who subscribes to this idea that there is "a massive push" or "convincing" going on, except those with very narrow online circles that buy into this sort of narrative that the daily mail etc push.

I think a lot of people would be better off without internet access tbh - then we wouldn't get all wound up about some random guidance issued to foreign schools (Which personally I think is great, we've went from the massively damaging Section 28 where only cis/het lifestyles could be discussed to a society that provides support to people who are not born that way (biologically not cis or hetero) in under two generations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826215#Comment_117826215

With all due respect, I think you are underthinking it.

Children should not be told that their "gender" is fluid when gender and sex are so intrinsically connected. If grown adults can't manage to have a conversation without linking the two, it's exceptionally unfair to expect children to do so.

You can't put a number on gender, you can't even tell me which ones you find legitimate or not without basing it on a spectrum based on the sexes.

Children have an innate desire to be individual and special. Allowing them to conjure up specific and individual pronouns or identities will of course lead to confusion.

Telling a little girl they are a little boy if they feel that way is inevitably going to lead to confusion about biological sex and it is undoubtedly irresponsible.

You've gone out of your way to speak to trans folk and that's fine. I haven't or wouldnt, but I have spoken to plenty of trans folk on this issue and have had various different outcomes out of the same conversation.

None of these outcomes made me feel differently.

I stay away from the extremists on both sides as much as I can. But you only have to see from earlier in this thread where I was lambasted and attacked for holding my position on this.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826271#Comment_117826271

You propose that this guidance will lead to confusion - and if people are being convinced they are trans, then no doubt it would. This is the bit I disagree with and I really dont buy it (although it is easy to get that impression from certain online sources).

The overthinking part is regarding all the made up pronouns you seem to think are being forced on children (and while I respect and see where you are coming from, talking about zebras etc trivialises the matter and does leave you open to being lambasted a little..)

Some people are trans. It natural. Emerging theories and research (and I know that's not conclusive before Klaz steps in again!) are showing that this is something that people are born with and not, for example, nurture. So denying this reality is (in my direct experience on this matter) is also terribly damaging.

This guidance seems to be in place to support those that may be trans. Not about convincing others to somehow become trans (which isnt gonna happen - if it was I agree it would be just as damaging as trying to convince a trans kid that they are not).

Gatling

"I don't know anyone who subscribes to this idea that there is "a massive push" or "convincing" going on, except those with very narrow online circles that buy into this sort of narrative that the daily mail etc push."

It's the wrong media now ,

Talking about running around chasing your tail ,no surprises I'm sure your only asking questions 😆

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826323#Comment_117826323

It really is hard to have a conversation with someone when they selectively take apart your post, ignore most of it and make a mockery with some added assumptions.

Did you have a point to make - or was that it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815772#Comment_117815772

that might have been a relevant comment on boards.us, if that existed. Although it would be whataboutary even then.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822850#Comment_117822850

Actually I doubt any 4 years would have a sexual preference. Bizarre.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826313#Comment_117826313

The "forcing" part I'm not even arguing. That was an argument that was thrust upon me where I was asked who was most likely to be forcing an identity on children, me or another user.

I'm saying that a little boy being told that if they feel like a girl, then they are one and are treated as if they are one, is damaging. Other children will see this and of course will see that this child is treated differently and want to be individual as well. And as I said, with the intrinsic link between gender identity and sex, this will lead to untold confusion.

The reason I bring up zebras and unicorns etc is because it is absolutely no less bizarre than some of the genders that I see people claiming to be. I can't see how someone claiming to be ANY gender they want trivializes it any more than someone claiming to be omnigender or two spirit.

Even reading the definitions of the "accepted" and known variations of genders are completely absurd. Gender Outlaw? Bigendered?

The science is still unclear and the jury is still out regarding the validity of it, so it has no place in a place of education. Biology isn't in doubt and that is where I expect teachers to base their treatment of children.

You can empathise with children who feel differently but it would do absolutely no harm to the child to give them an age appropriate biology lesson.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824465#Comment_117824465

Really. Where’s the literature on that for pre-pubescents?

It's all a load of bollocks.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117814104#Comment_117814104

What's the biology behind it? I genuinely don't know of any.

Surely it's psychological rather than biological?

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826382#Comment_117826382

Is this a question for me, or wouldn't it be better served on researchgate or a search engine or something?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826422#Comment_117826422

Or labia.

Don't be a bigot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826450#Comment_117826450

No it’s a question for you, since you said quite definitely that young children (and we are talking about 4 year olds here) have always known they had gender dysphoria. My reading of the literature is that, where this happened, this generally disappeared by pubescence.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826045#Comment_117826045

Just to clarify, I was opposing the idea that everyone was trans... Trans people want to change their gender (and sometimes their sex) to something else, or to none at all., but the focus of being trans is the change. As for cis, I've always hated that term, because for a movement that wants to do away with traditional classifications, the trans community spend an awful amount of time creating new terms to classify themselves and others. I'd argue we have more classifications/terms applied to people now, that before the trans movement gained so much attention.

Lastly, the exposure of children to the overall concept of gender change is promoting the trans movement and their agendas. Any explanation is not going to be coached in neutral or negative terms about the issue of gender because that's not how you communicate with 5 year olds. This is an attempt to normalise the trans issue with small children.. and while you might believe that the overall trans situation should be normalised (I don't), it definitely shouldn't be extended to young impressionable children who are not capable of resisting the interests of adults around them.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826446#Comment_117826446

I don't think you can say that with certainty? Would changes in hormones pre birth count as biology for example? It's a topic that requires a lot more research, and while you may be right, I don't think you can assume so.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826563#Comment_117826563

(side note - new boards and quoting sucks..)

Your first paragraph: I got that completely - I was kinda just saying that maybe trans/cis are labels that are unnecessary. I never seen your previous post where you talk about trans=change. I hadn't considered that before and I am not sure how I feel about that. But I agree, regarding labels - fewer is better (and that seems to be how most real people operate, including members of the trans community that I know, not the ones that are often read about - although can I assume you have at least dipped your toe into those communities too, regarding your commends about CD?)

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826540#Comment_117826540

There is plenty out there - If I can be bothered I will find some for you, but its really not hard to find - what sources do you have logins for and what level access, or will the abstracts suffice?

Some of my statement is also regarding discussions I've had with people and personal experience, and as far as I know these people weren't participants in any formal study, so they will not appear in the literature.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826705#Comment_117826705

[agreed on the quoting.]

I've dated transitioned people and have a variety of close friends who would be considered traditional trans. I have known a lot of transgendered people in Asia, but the culture (and expectations) there, is far different than what goes on in the West. Back here, while I have met people who considered their gender to be wrong, and claimed to be something else, honestly., each of them felt to be rather superficial and cherry-picking as to what aspects of their desired gender they wanted to adopt, with little real consideration of all that gender entailed.

Beyond the presence of the T in LGBT affairs, I have had little personal experience with the Trans community, because from the beginning, I didn't like the hyper aggressiveness of it. Reminded me too much of the more negative elements of the LGB community, especially the double standards and bigotry (by other LGBT) that often raised it's head at Pride events.

It's one of the reasons why I'm so adamant about the Trans topic. Most of my own experiences with Trans people, who haven't invested in physical transitioning, has given the impression of superficial change, which can be reversed at the drop of a hat. No real investment beyond their current behavior. With transitioned people very few of them were happy with their own experience, once the change had been finished, once the initial euphoria had ended. I know some who have since sought to reverse the changes made, to disastrous results, and others who are simply stuck.. Oh, they're happy being homosexual, but not happy with what the Trans had led them to. I do know three different people who are very content with their transition, and have been for over a decade, but they're a distinct minority... which is why I want to see more agenda-free research on this topic, and more consideration given to "what happens next" for both the people directly involved and how it will affect society.

When it comes to this topic, it's far too early to introduce all this to children, when we know so little about the long-term effects on adults... and so much of what we do know is layered with misinformation and bias.