4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

03-09-2021 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842940#Comment_117842940

Sure. But you already know that, just as you already knew that the self-referential definition you gave was nonsense. And now you're trying to get people to jump through deconstructionist hoops with you, so that you can arrive at a picture of the world painted by Escher, with Foucault whispering in his ear, where sure nothing means anything so who cares what a girl brain is anyway.

That is a road down which nothing can ever be challenged, debated or settled. It's a tedious, monotonous, oft-traveled hellscape where you try to convince me with increasing fervour that since there is no perfect definition of anything then we cannot accept any definition of anything, and I end up pointing out that in that case, it makes no difference anyway whether I say "him" or "her", or "transwoman" or "man" since words don't mean anything and definitions are not perfect so who does it harm?

Let's not go there.

Unless you are intending to present a non self-referential definition of "girl" (and a prefixed version of the same word does not count), I'll refrain from engaging further.

Anne_Widdecombe · 03-09-2021 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843161#Comment_117843161

That's not a definition; it's a categorization. A definition should be non-self referential.

Caitlyn Jenner is a man.

03-09-2021 7:02pm

Caitlyn Jenner is a transwoman.

Anne_Widdecombe · 03-09-2021 7:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843556#Comment_117843556

Both.

LLMMLL · 03-09-2021 7:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843412#Comment_117843412

So what's your definition? You start by claiming you can give the definition of girl but then avoid doing so. Did you think nobody would point it out?

I'm sure you won't use vague terms like young and adult in your definition.

Anne_Widdecombe · 03-09-2021 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843588#Comment_117843588

You can't even provide a definition yourself.

Saying that the difference between a man and a woman is that a man is a cis man or a trans man is the most embarrassing attempt at a definition I've ever seen in my life.

And it must also be embarrassing to have to contort language to such a degree that it renders language meaningless - all to suit the narrative of a bizarre, illogical, contradictory ideological agenda.

LLMMLL · 03-09-2021 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843537#Comment_117843537

It is a definition. You know (as you admitted in the previous thread) that both Caitlyn Jenner and Hilary Clinton are women by that definition even though you personally believe Caitly Jenner to be a man.

The definition has succeeded in communicating to you who is a woman by the definition.

That's all a definition needs to do.

LLMMLL · 03-09-2021 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843597#Comment_117843597

There is no contortion of language. You just don't understand the difference between terms (language) concepts (mental) and reality.

You have yet to provide anything other than a vague definition of girl or woman. It's extremely hypocritical to criticise me.

Anne_Widdecombe · 03-09-2021 7:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843613#Comment_117843613

You say that a man is either a cis man or a trans man, and a woman is either a cis woman or a trans woman (again, embarrassing attempts at definitions).

What is the key differentiator between a cis man and a cis woman?

Assume for the sake of this definitional question that both participants are asleep.

LLMMLL · 03-09-2021 7:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843623#Comment_117843623

There would be many differentiators. One is that the cis woman identifies as a woman and the cis man identifies as a man. Sexual.organs would be different, etc.

It's irrelevant whether they are asleep or not. You couldn't tell if a person was Gay or straight of they were asleep. Does that.mean there are no differences between gay and straight people?

03-09-2021 7:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843588#Comment_117843588

On the contrary, I completely expected you to point it out, which is why I was very up-front and specific about what the conditions for continued engagement are.

Anne_Widdecombe · 03-09-2021 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843635#Comment_117843635

The point is that I knew you'd raise "...that the cis woman identifies as a woman" nonsense. Again, dragging in personal experience / feelings.

So, I think I've reached the end of the road with this one.

As @Gatling earlier argued, there is no debating the following position: when asked what is a man, your response is "either a cis man or a trans man", and that a woman is "either a cis woman or a trans woman".

First, these are embarrassing attempts at definitions and an attempt to wish away the real definitions because they are inconvenient to suit your narrative.

Second, a man is XY and a woman is XX - full stop. Nice, simple, clean definitions. I don't care what they think. The biology stands as evidence alone. In the same way I don't care what a horse thinks or an elephant thinks. What matters is the biology. You are hoping to wish or explain that away with pseudo-linguistic, postmodern tricks.

Third, we have clearly established why these arguments should not be introduced to 4-year olds. Whilst this level of depth may not be introduced, it serves as a slippery slope to the kind of nonsense they may be expected to confront at a phase too early in their lives.

Fourth, you have singularly failed to provide a definition of man/woman without resorting to self-referential versions. A total and utter failure.

For these reasons, I won't be continuing this phase of the discussion on this thread. Readers can come to their own conclusions.

LLMMLL · 03-09-2021 7:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843645#Comment_117843645

So I assume you are refusing to give the definition?

My condition for continued engagement is that you provide the definition of girl.

Since you can't I believe we are done.

03-09-2021 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843659#Comment_117843659

You are correct. Have a good weekend.

LLMMLL · 03-09-2021 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843663#Comment_117843663

You too. Have a nice girls weekend.

ebbsy · 03-09-2021 7:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805148#Comment_117805148

And the parents should have their kids taken off them.

LLMMLL · 03-09-2021 7:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843651#Comment_117843651

Well I've never heard a newborn baby being described as a woman before.

But by your definition that is incorrect. A baby can be a woman.

Great definition.

nolivesmatter · 03-09-2021 7:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843671#Comment_117843671

…really?

LLMMLL · 03-09-2021 7:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843707#Comment_117843707

Yes Anne says that a woman is anyone with XX chromosomes. Therefore a newborn baby can be a woman.

Have you ever heard a baby being described as a woman?

Morgans · 03-09-2021 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842797#Comment_117842797

You still are not dealing with the issue. I've spelled out several instances where it is incredibly simple for you to address the issue. You are pretending to address the issue.

bewareofthedog · 03-09-2021 8:08pm

Last post I'll make on this. My point is that it boils down to this. Concepts and ideas shouldn't be introduced to people or entertained if those people cannot from a conceptional standpoint understand them. Doing anything else is abuse, plain and simple.

It becomes even more egregious when we're talking about subjects like sex and identity with what are pretty much toddlers. IMO it's sick and nothing in this world will ever change my opinion on that - if anything it shows how much of a stranglehold far left ideology and group identity over the individual has over education and many other institutions... people are afraid to speak out about it.

I have no doubt the vast majority of people feel the same way I do - parents need to mobilize in private meetings and take action against school boards if such propositions arise.

You always hear the same defence when these types of subjects come up, "They're not forcing anyone to do anything", or "Get a grip it doesn't work like that". It ALWAYS starts like that, those defending such policies see it as a stepping stone to further actions down the line. The logic of believing that such changes are a one off is so disgustingly disingenuous and those making such an argument must have a really low opinion of the intelligence of others or are totally indoctrinated by their own idealogy.

I remember there was a thread about transgender athletes in college in the US and the main rebuttal was "It's only colleges and semi amateur competition what's the harm? you're talking like it effects professional sport". Well what did we in the past Olympics? Males competing in weight lifting competitions, the lunacy and wokeness of it all overtook reasoning and logic to the point only after the Olympics and the backlash over it that the board there came out publicly and said they had to review the rules.

They know what they're doing, when I hear phrases downplaying the introduction of such policies I think to myself - "They must really think people are stupid". Either that or they're brainwashed beyond hope.

One eyed Jack · 03-09-2021 9:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843741#Comment_117843741

Morgans I’ve already been more than fair to you in explaining that from my perspective, there is no issue - I cannot be compelled to refer to anyone however they wish to be referred to. Nobody can.

You’ve previously tried to claim that I’m portraying myself as a victim in the face of your “trans rights” advocacy and from your perspective I’m a transphobic asshole.

Still not an issue for me, still not unreasonable for me to point out that nobody has the right to compel another person to agree with them. It would be unreasonable for anyone to think they had the right to demand that anyone has to agree with them.

Anne_Widdecombe · 03-09-2021 9:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843972#Comment_117843972

At the risk of misinterpreting you, are you arguing that you have no issues with trans- per se, but that you don't want the law to compel you to use certain speech forms / language re: trans-?

Parachutes · 03-09-2021 9:49pm

There’s only two genders. You shouldn’t be able to transition between the genders until you are a legal adult. It’s that simple.

03-09-2021 10:38pm

I don't see how it's "child abuse" just to refer to a child by what they say are their preferred pronouns - those who have actually been abused as children might have a view on that one - but I don't think children as young as four are even aware of the ramifications that pronouns have.

There are two sexes. It's gender that is the ambiguous one. Sex and gender are not the same.

Those "so what is a woman?" debates never fail to astound/insult me.

Anne_Widdecombe · 03-09-2021 10:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844456#Comment_117844456

Then...just teach sex!?

One eyed Jack · 03-09-2021 10:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844009#Comment_117844009

Oh I have plenty of issues with lots of ideas with regard to what people claim are “trans rights”, and I have plenty of issues with the guidelines which are being provided to schools in Scotland regarding supporting children who are transgender - the idea for example that they are not encouraging discussions in class regarding social transitioning as part of the guidelines when that’s exactly what the guidelines are suggesting as good practice in supporting children who are transgender.

I’m not overly concerned about the material itself because I know that apart from the fact that children are notoriously skeptical, most children are unlikely to be able to relate to most of it in any case given that school is not the only place where children are exposed to a multitude of ideas over the course of their lifetimes as opposed to just being exposed to a single idea, or framework, or ideology.

I have no issue with the law which I know does not compel anyone to say anything, it’s part of the right to freedom of expression - that people are also protected from being compelled to express a belief they do not hold, or a belief they profoundly disagree with. People also have the right to freedom of thought, conscience or belief, and the right to freedom from belief.

That’s why I suggested to Morgans earlier that I foresee similar scenes to what were witnessed outside schools in the UK already -

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/26/birmingham-anderton-park-primary-muslim-protests-lgbt-teaching-rights

And that’s when Morgans chose to drop the analogy with Islam and change tack. However the same principles and rights apply - nobody can be compelled to express a belief they do not hold, and when it comes to preferred pronouns, people cannot be compelled to use a person’s preferred pronouns either. Anyone has the right to have their preferred gender recognised in law, but even that right has it’s limited application in law -

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/16/trans-man-loses-uk-legal-battle-to-register-as-his-childs-father

It’s for these reasons that “the power of pronouns compels you”, just doesn’t make for a very compelling argument in any case.