4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117865959#Comment_117865959

The front lounge is still there. It just changed its name. As far as I can tell the vibe and audience hasn't changed much at all. Apart from covid of course.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866177#Comment_117866177

You seem to want to ignore the fact that we’re talking about people who are transgender when it suits you, and play up the fact that discrimination is justified because of your experience of a few loopers who happened to be transgender, and you don’t want them specifically to have the same status in society as everyone else.

That’s hardly the way rights work though, they’re supposed to promote freedoms, and they’re not absolute freedoms in any case, so the idea of anyone being denied entry to what is expected to be exclusively a space for females only is discrimination, and whether or not it’s permissible or not is a question for the Courts, depending upon the circumstances involved.

It’s just not something that’s going to be policed by individuals taking the law into their own hands, and so to your question of whether or not you should or shouldn’t be permitted to enter women’s spaces, well I don’t see any reason why you shouldn’t. I’ve worked in plenty of places which were women’s only spaces and it’s never been an issue.

It’s being made into an issue though by people who want to cherry pick examples of individuals improper behaviour which supports their narrative that it’s because the individual is transgender is the reason for their behaviour… which ignores the reality that the vast majority of people who engage in antisocial behaviour share far more characteristics in common with the people making the point.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866204#Comment_117866204

You seem to want to ignore the fact that we’re talking about people who are transgender when it suits you

That makes no sense, even when combined with the remainder of the sentence.

, and play up the fact that discrimination is justified because of your experience of a few loopers who happened to be transgender, and you don’t want them specifically to have the same status in society as everyone else.

No... OEJ..,. You've chosen to believe that everything I've said is based on my personal experiences... It's awfully handy that such can be leveled at me, but your opinions are wonderfully clear and balanced. You do realise that everything I've posted over the last dozen pages is not based off a few examples I wrote in the last page? Yeah..

That’s hardly the way rights work though, they’re supposed to promote freedoms, and they’re not absolute freedoms in any case, so the idea of anyone being denied entry to what is expected to be exclusively a space for females only is discrimination, and whether or not it’s permissible or not is a question for the Courts, depending upon the circumstances involved.

You want to extend rights to one group over another... and freedoms to one group over another. The minority group has a greater need to freedom and rights than the majority. You don't even see the hypocrisy of your own arguments.

It’s being made into an issue though by people who want to cherry pick examples of individuals improper behaviour which supports their narrative that it’s because the individual is transgender is the reason for their behaviour… which ignores the reality that the vast majority of people who engage in antisocial behaviour share far more characteristics in common with the people making the point.

I've already stated my reasons, and antisocial behavior was not part of them. Perhaps pick someone who did say such a thing, and wrangle with them over it?

Okay. I'm finished going around in circles with you because you keep assigning crap to me that I didn't post and then expecting me to justify or defend it. Just as I'm not particularly liking the tone/wording you keep assigning to me. Honestly, I thought you were more balanced/fair than this... and I can't be bothered dealing with this kind of attitude. I expect it from the foaming in the mouth Trans advocates, but I'm surprised to see it coming from you.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866198#Comment_117866198

It’ll be fun!

Aye, that’s essentially my take on it too, I don’t take it seriously because I can’t take it seriously. It’ll be something else again being promoted in a small number of schools by this time next month, and so on, and so on. Some children might relate to it, most children won’t, and of those children who might relate to it, it’s even more likely that they’re supported by their parents and peers in their own social circles.

It’s limited in any case to a very small number of people as opposed to the idea that children are suddenly going to start wanting to be referred to by their preferred pronouns at any given time of day as you’re making out with the whole gender fluid idea. They’re guidelines for schools, of which among nearly 700,000 students, only around 200 a year are presenting as transgender -

In 2019, there were 697,989 pupils in Scotland’s public schools. It is known that around 200 young people per year receive support from the Young Person’s Gender Service with their transition.

On that basis alone I don’t see any reason to have any great concern about children coming home from school and when asked what did they learn in school today, they’ll come out with “today I learned that girls have a penis and boys have a vagina”, unless they’re the type that likes to wind up their parents.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866218#Comment_117866218

It’s limited in any case to a very small number of people as opposed to the idea that children are suddenly going to start wanting to be referred to by their preferred pronouns at any given time of day as you’re making out with the whole gender fluid idea. They’re guidelines for schools, of which among nearly 700,000 students, only around 200 a year are presenting as transgender 

I can see Irish politicians/public servants seeing it, and thinking it would be a great initiative to pass on to the country. Kinda like the other {closed} thread about pronouns and ant-bullying. I wasn't particularly worried about the initial Scotland initiative, but what comes next when it's judged to be a success.

In any case, I'll leave it at that.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866214#Comment_117866214

You’re telling me I’m attributing things to you which you haven’t said, while at the same time suggesting that I want to extend rights to one group over another… and freedoms to one group over another.

I figure we are done when you’re not even interested in reading the post you’re quoting from where I specifically made the point that rights are not absolute and what rights apply in any given case would depend on the circumstances of the case, a balancing act, and I specifically made the point that rights and freedoms are based upon the idea of everyone being of equal status in society.

How that’s arguing that I want to place anyone’s rights over anyone else’s is beyond me tbh.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866222#Comment_117866222

This was kicking around in Ireland long before these guidelines in Scotland. This bill was proposed in 2018 -

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2018/34/

This is the reality when the issue is raised -

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/08/29/ireland-transgender-trans-gender-diverse-school-equality-network-university-limerick/

And that’s in spite of the fact that there have been guidelines in Irish schools regarding these issues for years -

https://www.into.ie/about/our-structure/associated-groups/into-lgbt-teachers-group/educational-resources/

bewareofthedog

What I don't get is that on the right if you're too far gone you're put into a box and excluded from the mainstream conversation - the ethnic nationalists, racists and so on. And that's obviously the correct thing to do. Where's the box for people who are gone too far left because there doesn't seem to be one.

Instead of being shunted like those on the far right spectrum a box to put them in doesn't seem to exist, instead they can enter mainstream positions like teaching roles. In my view society has officially mainstreamed delusion to the point that it's abusing children. Governing bodies just seem afraid to draw the line and continue to behave like cowards out of fear.

The disingenuous defenders know what's going on in the states already. They'll continue to downplay and defend the policies like the one in the OP knowing full well what awaits down the line. Children should not be let anywhere near the woman in the video below, scary thing is there's thousands just like her - a whole army of indoctrinated and dangerous individuals garnering power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEHSoV-lMaQ

Shield

Page 22 of the Guidance Booklet available here is what this is about. It's under the heading "Changing name and recorded sex".

Changing recorded sex when it's impossible to change your sex really is confusing at a time in your life when you need certainty. Telling a 4yo boy he can be a girl (and vice versa) is a step too far. Boys can never be girls and girls can never be boys. It's cruel to tell a tiny child otherwise. I can't believe I have to be so clear about something everyone knows is a simple truth.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866433#Comment_117866433

Imagine the idea that you send your 2.5 year old and up toddler to a preschool and in a short period of time they can change their name , preferred pronouns ,and gender identity essentially full social transitioning and you could have no say in the matter ,

2.5- 4 years olds being transitioned in preschool , guarantee no childcare educators and childcare facilities were ever brought into discuss this nonsense,

But supposed trans activists were given carte blache to push this

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866967#Comment_117866967

I wonder what the title of this novel will be? Or is it a collection of short stories?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117863260#Comment_117863260

You seem to be completely missing the point @One eyed Jack meant

1 There are no laws on who can go into a public toilet

2 Trans women have been using womens toilets for many years. Trans men the same.

Your suggestion they couldnt goto the toilet of their preferred gender is frankly pure nonsense and drivel.

I'm genuinely sorry that you met some trans people who had mental or emotional difficulties but frankly its very odd that you stereotype a whole community as emotionally unstable based on a few of your experiences.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866214#Comment_117866214

To be fair to @One eyed Jack you continuously mention and highlight your negative experiences of trans people and how this has influenced your views of trans people negatively.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117867137#Comment_117867137

Looking at what's been going on with the UK Tavistock clinic in recent years. It doesn't sound too far off.

NHS gender identity clinic whistleblower wins damages | Transgender | The Guardian

from the guardian:

" "The tribunal heard that some staff were particularly worried about a private GP, Dr Helen Webberley, who on her own initiative was issuing prescriptions for puberty blocking drugs to young people being assessed by Gids, or who were on the waiting list for assessment. They approached Appleby with concerns that taking hormones before assessment could pose a risk to children.

The tribunal heard evidence that after she raised the concerns, instead of addressing them, the trust management ostracised her and attempted to prevent her from carrying out her safeguarding role, by sidelining her. Appleby said the management’s action amounted to a “full-blown organisational assault”

..

Tavistock and Portman trust became “so caught up in the politicisation of the subject of gender identity it had lost sight of its duty to safeguard children. " "

And another angle on them: Tavistock gender clinic ‘converting’ gay children | News | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)

Its one thing for adults to change gender identities, but maybe these revelations will help everyone take a step back from pushing this agenda to children. Let them make their minds up when they're older.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117868113#Comment_117868113

you stereotype a whole community as emotionally unstable based on a few of your experiences.

Care to quote me where I stereotyped a whole community as emotionally unstable?

And this is why I can't be bothered continuing with this debate... this need by opponents to twist, reinterpret or flat out make up ****. It just goes on and on. Meh. And no... I won't be bothering to deal with your response because I know it'll be more of the same.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117868529#Comment_117868529

maybe these revelations will help everyone take a step back from pushing this agenda to children.

Prediction: they won't.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117868723#Comment_117868723

Needing to twist, reinterpret or flat out make up shìt? I’ll just give you one example -

When I would say that there is no prohibition in Irish law which prevents anyone from using whatever bathrooms or facilities they’re comfortable with, you’d continuously respond to my point leaving out the crucial part in bold, and then make the point that people can use the bathroom which matches their sex, knowing full well that wasn’t my point, and doesn’t address the point I was making.

it’s the same sort of behaviour that was done in the marriage equality referendum to suggest that people who are gay already had the right to marry, purposely leaving out the crucial point that they could not marry a person of the same sex.

Then you went on to suggest that for all my talk of human rights, access to use the bathroom of their choice was not a human right, when I never suggested that anyone had that explicit right in Ireland, or in Scotland, which is why they lean heavily into the Equality Acts to suggest that all people are of the same status in law, and there was no suggestion that anyone is demanding rights over or above anyone else, like what you claimed I was suggesting.

Legislation does exist in other jurisdictions which explicitly recognises the right of people who are transgender to use whichever bathroom they’re comfortable with, and that right doesn’t interfere in any way with anyone else’s use of whatever bathroom they’re comfortable with.

The bathrooms stuff is nothing more than an invented issue in an attempt to stall the discussion from proceeding any further, while still allowing you to make your points about what you perceive to be the dangers of the transgender movement.

I’d suggest that the idea of anyone who thinks they have any business preventing anyone from using the bathroom they’re most comfortable in, isn’t just being unreasonable, it’s a dangerous idea given that it’s likely to lead to even more women being harassed in bathrooms than are harassed in bathrooms already, but at it’s most basic level, they’re trying to control people and prevent them from going to the toilet!

And you’re suggesting that the transgender movement have issues? And they should play ball when it comes to where they go to the toilet, and they wait and ASK to use the bathrooms they’re most comfortable in after an unspecified period of time when society has had time to get used to the idea of the existence of people who are transgender.

And when do you imagine that would be? Because if I’m being honest, it would appear that you’d rather a society where people who are transgender were invisible and didn’t make themselves visible, and if they do, they’d be in such small numbers that they’d easily be controlled and have to ask permission to use the bathroom they’re comfortable in, only to be told no, wait until society is ready.

Reasonable? Setting society back 100 odd years seems reasonable to you? What was society like then for anyone who didn’t fit in with the majority I wonder… maybe they should have waited 100 years until society was ready for them and they wouldn’t have been hung, executed, imprisoned or lobotomised, condemned to either the poorhouse or the lunatic asylum 🤔

People really knew how to show those uppity fcukers with ideas above their stations in society back then. Thankfully nowadays it’s those people who are in a minority in any society, and STILL they’ll try and make out they’re somehow being victimised 🙄

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117868723#Comment_117868723

I'm not twisting or reinterpreting anything - you consistently use negative language about the trans community; about how they are emotional, aggressive, unstable, superficial, unhappy, unreasonable

Example number 1 The first problem with the trans movement is their advocates who feel the need to be hyper aggressive

Example number 2 depending on the Trans subcategory you want to discuss there is the potential for serious harm both psychologically, and physically.

Example number 3 My emotional ability is not tied to my gender.  

Example number 4 while I have met people who considered their gender to be wrong, and claimed to be something else, honestly., each of them felt to be rather superficial and cherry-picking as to what aspects of their desired gender they wanted to adopt, with little real consideration of all that gender entailed.

Example number 4 I have had little personal experience with the Trans community, because from the beginning, I didn't like the hyper aggressiveness of it. 

Example number 5 Most of my own experiences with Trans people, who haven't invested in physical transitioning, has given the impression of superficial change, which can be reversed at the drop of a hat. No real investment beyond their current behavior. With transitioned people very few of them were happy with their own experience, once the change had been finished, once the initial euphoria had ended. I know some who have since sought to reverse the changes made, to disastrous results, and others who are simply stuck.. Oh, they're happy being homosexual, but not happy with what the Trans had led them to. I do know three different people who are very content with their transition, and have been for over a decade, but they're a distinct minority... 

Example number 6 The downsides to gender change and trans transitioning are pretty clear. 

Example number 7  leave the gender change to the extreme minority 

Example number 8 many trans people/advocates have assumed some strange kind of holier than thou attitude to pronouns or terms of description

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117868723#Comment_117868723

Noted as well you are ignoring the discussion about toilets where your arguments are pretty much shown up as nonsense. You go on and on about how trans women shouldnt use womens toilets and how this is not "allowed". This is utter nonsense - Noone ever disallowed it. Trans women have been using womens toilets for decades and trans men the same. Plus of course your suggestion of toilets segregated by biological sex is asking for trouble; Basically its about putting police on toilets to check the biological sex of entrants and forcing trans women to use the mens toilets and trans men into the womens toilets

bewareofthedog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869411#Comment_117869411

Decades eh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXio40pl3FI

Morgans

As a society, we are, almost unbelievably, lucky that all sex offenders (trans or otherwise) have huge respect for the signs and labels that are on toilet doors. Otherwise god knows what could happen. If it wasn't for that fear of toilet signs, society would crumble.

Gatling

I wonder if you removed all signage from public bathrooms ,

What would they possibly demand next ,signs to be reinstalled in public bathrooms ,

Who would have thought south park could actually be relevant 😂😂😂

Gatling

But we still have to deal with the issue of preschoolers being socially transitioned in a early years settings ,

Does anyone in authority actually read this stuff before it gets foisted on children and schools including early years settings ?

Absolutely no need for segregated toilets, particularly not for small children.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117869677#Comment_117869677

In schools and preschool absolutely not ,I've been in preschools where there was only one single toilet for 15 children and 3 adults .

I can only imagine the looks a parent would have gotten if they asked where was the other bathroom was

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117866199#Comment_117866199

I accept that. I read somewhere it had shut down but according to you that's not correct. I've moved on from Dublin since so can only go by what I read. What I thought funny about it at the time is that the men had the back section (the better part) and the women had the front section, by the front door. That was always very obvious and shows the phoneyness of the idea of a lgbt culture which is truly interwoven. Side by side at best. And that is exactly what I have been saying all along. Oh but that's just my egocentric lived experiences of reality which doesn't count.

I am all for variety of social venues though, and I think if @OEJ is right that there are now fewer gay bars, as he claimed earlier, I don't know if that's true myself, but I think that's terrible and can be put down to online dating which I despise. I think Grindr particularity is a run by a nasty bunch of opportunistic moneygrabbers who are tying to appeal to as many identities as they can for their own financial gain. That's off-topic of course and I've been meaning to bring that subject up in the LGBT forum but reluctant to do so. Oh hell, now that I've mentioned it, it's quite obvious to me Grindr sets up fake user profiles of newer 'identities', rather than it being done by individual users or 'catfishers' as they are known. And all this is influential on younger peoples minds, and I think that app is in a long way responsible for mostly younger gay men coming out as non-binary or gender fluid. And then they send you PM's directing you to other more pornographic websites, which they own. I'll park that there.

I have been in the front lounge many times over the years, with gay friends. There was never any segregation to the front of back, in fact, I and my friends, all female, tended to hang out at the back. It wasn't overly male at all. Don't know where you got That idea

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870425#Comment_117870425

I got that idea from my experience of being there, where else. Of course there was some overlap as there wasn't a physical barrier in the middle of the venue. You'd hardly think butch dykes and effeminate gay men, to take the extremes, would have much in common. Once again my lived reality is being rubbished.

edit: It wasn't forced segregation, I never used the term segregation, I'm saying that what I observed is the natural way of reality.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870425#Comment_117870425

I havent been in there in about 5 years but I definitely remember there often was a thing in the front lounge that the front was more frequented by women drinkers and the back more men. I dont think he said it was segregated.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870494#Comment_117870494

I’ll be honest with you @AllForIt, I thought you were using the “lived reality” term facetiously in the first instance, like you weren’t actually being serious, but the “once again my lived reality is being rubbished” line has me wondering 😂 I mean, I didn’t take it seriously when you were asking me what would I know about it and I must have only read whatever on the Internet and all the rest of it. I didn’t take it seriously because, well, at the risk of stating the obvious, y’know - we’re hardly likely to have shared identical experiences really, nor is it likely we have been frequenting gay bars with the same motivations in mind, and apart from that there wasn’t anything I wanted to tell you on a public forum really, other than we were unlikely to have had the same experiences 😁

And that goes quadruple even for the generations of children in schools today. Like, your earlier point about the decline of gay bars wasn’t off-topic at all. There was a period in time when they served their purposes as a home for the outcasts of civilised society. Indeed villages and whole cities grew around them - while Craig Rodwell and Co were organising in New York, many were already moving to LA where Harvey Milk figured he would make waves as a political activist. You made the point questioning what might the two extremes had in common, well back then they had enough in common to set aside their differences in pursuit of the common good of everyone (as many activists are, they were generally socialist in their political outlook, all the more reason to find themselves castigated from conservative society!).

If you take a look at the school curriculum in Scotland though, or hell, even here in Ireland, you won’t find any of the rich cultural and political history of, and I’m reluctant to use the term, but it’s essentially what you’re referring to as what’s missing - “gay culture”. It hardly exists any more because there’s no need for it, and what’s on display nowadays as Pride and how commercialised the identity has become would have both Rodwell and Milk doing 9,000 RPM in their graves if they saw it, never mind whatever they’d make of Stonewall, because they were all about maintaining their own separate identity and culture and all the rest of it - separate, but equal.

Children won’t learn that history on any curriculum, but I’ll bet 20 years ago you never imagined you’d hear anyone say “they’ll learn it from their parents”. There’s every chance that they might, and I hope they do, because they won’t learn it in school, and it’d be a shame to lose that history through sheer apathy because the popular refrain nowadays is “who cares?” Achieving equality has come at the price of meaning that people who are gay are regarded as being no different than anyone else - they’re parents, they’re responsible citizens with actual jobs, they’re your family, friends and neighbours, no longer secluded off on the margins of civilised society, they even live in the nice parts of town 😳

That’s essentially why gay bars have been in decline for the best part of two decades, and children nowadays are unlikely when they see someone like David Norris on tv when homosexuality was decriminalised in Ireland think “that was illegal? I never knew! 🤔” (it was as a bit of a shocker tbh 😂). I know you don’t like irrelevant links, so here he is in 1975 on Irish tv talking about his political advocacy -

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2014/0212/503805-david-norris-chairman-of-the-gay-rights-movement-1975/

I’m willing to bet you STILL don’t see the commonalities between the topics of conversation above in relation to people who are homosexual, and people who are transgender, and many of the of the same arguments which are commonly applied to try and deny that they are the entitled to equal status and participation in public life and an equal right to contribute to society.

For what it’s worth though, and again I know you don’t like irrelevant links, but your earlier post where you appeared to be on the fence about the decline of gay bars and the rise of hookup apps did remind me of an article which was very relevant to your point, and supports the point I was making, and it’s not that it was just something I read somewhere, but it’s something has been a topic of conversation I’ve had with a few people over the years -

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/15/goodbye-to-all-the-gay-bars-are-dating-apps-killing-queer-culture

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_gay_bar/2011/06/the_gay_bar_6.html?via=gdpr-consent

It’s unlikely articles like that will appear on the English exam paper as a media studies question, and unless they’re taught about it in schools, children generally aren’t bothered to go outside the curriculum to get a broader perspective on anything, which means they grow up to be adults who maintain a very narrow perspective of the world around them, even with the world at their fingertips.