4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820961#Comment_117820961

I got an explanation that explained one number by referencing two other numbers. That's a pretty childlike explanation. What is two? One more than one? Then what is one? One more than......oh.

If you're so confident I'm sure you can explain what an individual number is (be it 1,2 or 3) without referring to other numbers.

Have a feeling I'll be waiting a looooong time.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117816303#Comment_117816303

Like going on the internet to campaign against providing support for kids in difficult situation? That kind of normal?

Anne_Widdecombe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821066#Comment_117821066

Are you seriously suggesting that 4-year olds wake up with the intent to talk to teachers about which toilets and pronouns to use?

Come on. This is ridiculous.

km991148

Most of this thread is ridiculous tbf.

Just like the flimsy attempt to put words in my mouth.

Gatling

@km991148

Have a feeling I'll be waiting a looooong time"

You couldn't couldn't count that high ,,,,

Dochas comes to mind 🤫

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821053#Comment_117821053

Lol.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821066#Comment_117821066

Not at all. That would be terrible. Why would you do that?

I prefer just to discuss current events and topics that pique my interest. That kind of normal.

Anne_Widdecombe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821226#Comment_117821226

I agree. I'm speechless.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821236#Comment_117821236

Otherwise known as avoiding a question you can't answer.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821066#Comment_117821066

Except that this isn't about providing that kind of help to the tiny minority who might possibly come out with this themselves. This is about furthering the trans issue, giving permission to teachers and parents who are "into" this kind of thing to introduce children to it all.

Speak to any kindergarten teacher, and you'll find that they're all sympathetic, supportive, and protective of "their" children. Any child who comes to talk about gender would already be receiving sympathy, and support... they're already like that. There's no need for a government led initiative to encourage it. The only reason to implement such a directive, or anything similar is to normalise the trans topic... when it's still a emotional topic for society in general. A topic that hasn't gained widespread acceptance.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821307#Comment_117821307

Hmm that is one interpretation all right.

No one is simply "into" this sort if thing. It's part of nature, biology even!

And what exactly is wrong with normalising trans people (or "the trans topic"). Trans people*are* normal, they do exist.

Threads like this on boards really do seem to bring out the worst on (what I assume to be) normally reasonable people (if you disagree with this, just scroll back on the last few pages here and some of the insults and comparisons made).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820494#Comment_117820494

No idea. Replying to wrong post....?

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821234#Comment_117821234

You are literally on this thread, arguing why we should deny support to children who may have issues with their gender. Are you now in favour of providing this support? I didn't think anyone on boards every changed their mind or admitted wrong, fair play for bucking the trend!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820519#Comment_117820519

Again - wrong post..?

Or are you saying that it is called Transbiological-sex? Simple yes or no, please.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821348#Comment_117821348

I don't think telling children they can create their own pronouns which should be respected or allowing them to believe that you can simply choose to be a boy or a girl is in any way supportive.

I think it's quite damaging.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821336#Comment_117821336

When I used "into" I was referring to the advocates of trans issues, who may or may not be trans themselves. There are/will be parents and others who are interested in promoting trans/gender change, while not applying it to themselves, but rather their children, or other peoples children. That's been the case in the US with advocates of trans issues.

Genuine trans people do exist, but are an extremely small percentage of people. Then, there's everyone else who now falls under the expanded umbrella term of "trans". And no, they're not normal. Which, in itself, isn't a bad thing, since "normal" is over-rated. However, depending on the Trans subcategory you want to discuss there is the potential for serious harm both psychologically, and physically. Which you already know, and have chosen to ignore... for whatever reason.

Nope.. I agree. The trans topic does tend to bring out the worst in people.. You see, I have no issue with what people do to themselves as adults. Couldn't care in the slightest. However, I do grow concerned when those choices impact others, and society as a whole. There are definite costs involved in the trans movement that aren't fully understood yet, but many people are content to rush blindly into making it, not just acceptable, but promote it. That's dangerous... and considering how few people are genuinely trans, and the remainder are choosing that path, I'd prefer to hold off on making it acceptable/normalised.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821373#Comment_117821373

As damaging as getting it wrong the other way, or.....?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821455#Comment_117821455

Absolutely.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821460#Comment_117821460

You... don't have any direct experience of this, then do you?

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821490#Comment_117821490

What kind of experience do you think someone needs to have to weigh in on this? Presumably it goes both ways?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821490#Comment_117821490

If you are asking if I know any trans people, then yes I do.

I'm still of the opinion that introducing children to, or entertaining the idea that it is possible to choose whether you are a boy or a girl is incredibly more damaging than doing otherwise.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821532#Comment_117821532

I know a potentially transgender kid, fwiw. I say potentially because the kid doesn't know.

Question is, which one of us advocating forcing a child into a role they may not be comfortable with and that will have long-lasting consequences if we get it wrong - you or me?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821543#Comment_117821543

What potential gender do they think they may be? What role would you be forcing him into by giving him an age appropriate biology lesson (i.e telling them they are either a boy or a girl and that can't change)?

A long lasting consequence of telling children otherwise would be a child growing up believing that boys and girls are interchangeable.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821581#Comment_117821581

I just asked a simple question: which one of us advocating forcing a child into a role they may not be comfortable with and that will have long-lasting consequences if we get it wrong - you or me?

Reply only needs one word.

After that, you can make whatever point you like.

Anne_Widdecombe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821581#Comment_117821581

It wouldn't surprise me if "non-binary" is included here, where the 4-year old / parents believe the child is neither male nor female.

That, too, will come with new pronouns.

And why wouldn't it be included? It's one of the cornerstones of what it means to be trans- for many people.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822267#Comment_117822267

I would honestly take my child out of a school which taught that you get to choose if you are a boy or a girl.

It's no more absurd than allowing the children to choose their ethnicity, skin colour, age or height.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822262#Comment_117822262

You gave an example of a potential trans kid, but the kid doesn't know... which makes it sounds like someone else "knows" what he/she should be.

I'd say that keeping to the traditional gender norms for children would be less damaging because the culture and systems are already in place, along with the behavioral norms to be learned.

Whereas for a boy choosing to be a girl, how does that work for them? Does that mean wearing female specific clothes, hairstyles, and such? How about their body language, and behavior when interacting with others, and more importantly, the reactions of those around them? Should he change the tone of his voice? Does the boy seek to develop as a girl, along with all the unique culture that involves being a girl/woman, or drift between the two belonging to neither?

The point is that for most young people it would be easier to "fake" being a gender than to deal with the consequences of being open about it. Even if, society was 50% more accommodating and supportive of the trans situation than it is today, there would still be heaps of hurdles to leap, and quite a bit of hostility to face.

And yes, I know what it's like to pretend to be normal, and all that goes along with that... but I wonder whether people really consider the drawbacks of openly declaring themselves. It's one thing to do that as an adult in a semi-supportive environment (and ability to be independent), it's quite another thing to do it as a child or young teen. Especially, when the long-term effects of that choice, and change in behavior comes into effect. I've known queer and camp homosexuals who originally openly declared themselves, challenging others to show their opposition, but have since returned to not displaying their perceived image of what it means to be gay... they're still gay, but in public act/speak as men, not as camp/queer men... because it's tough to do for any kind of extended period, unless you're living in a bubble.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821543#Comment_117821543

What exactly is it that makes you suspect this? And how would that differ from suspecting they are gay or just a boy taken to more stereotypical girl activities or a girl to more boy activities?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822262#Comment_117822262

You.

archfi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822746#Comment_117822746

This is it.

A boy playing with 'girl' toys, a girl playing with 'boy' toys. In some minds (and purposely selected funded orgs that write the 'guidance', in Scotland at least), that's all it takes.

There is nothing progressive involved, rather a reverting to regressive stereotypes.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822490#Comment_117822490

No one knows, no one assumes, no one forces or pressurises.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822746#Comment_117822746

Nothing. It's the kids own testimony. All of your scenarios are possible.

Anne_Widdecombe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822796#Comment_117822796

Exactly.

Gender identity theory reinforces stereotypes about men and women that we were supposed to have sought to abolish years ago.

That's a step backwards, not forwards.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822773#Comment_117822773

Disingenuous and you know it.

Unless you believe that there are lots of people out there who'll go, "No Timmy, I saw you playing with a Barbie, your name is now Sarah and you must answer to it".

There aren't. This is the same moral panic nonsense that has caused backwards eastern European states to start outlawing lessons that being gay is OK.

Seriously, the whole argument for the last 3 days has boiled down to, "There are kids now who think being trans is trendy and they're all doing it".

Exactly the same argument was used against gay people. The notion that making it OK to be gay, would lead to rush on young people to be gay because it's cool. It's the last gasp of the dinosaur.

Young people are not going to "choose" to change gender, for exactly the same reason that you won't. They don't choose to be gay, for the same reason that you don't choose to be gay. We've been treating gay people - in an educational context at least - as equals for 15-20 years now. And there hasn't been this sudden shift where all young people are now gay because it's cool. It's a moral panic, invented by dinosaurs.

This boils down to, "When a young person expresses a desire to have their self-image respected, you do that".

And yet, it's sad and disturbing that so many adults seem to think that children need to be forced into line, forced to conform, no matter the cost.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822773#Comment_117822773

How?

And are you saying you're not forcing a child into a gender role - yes or no? One word, again - no rambling monologues.

Anne_Widdecombe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822850#Comment_117822850

Why are you bringing up gay people as if it's a direct comparison?

That is what's disingenuous.

Children have no conception of sexuality at age 4. You also cannot change sexuality at any age.

But the trans identity theory argues that you can change gender at 4-years old.

You cannot objectively change sexuality. You also cannot objectively change sex.

Our position is consistent and clear. Yours is abundantly opaque.

Can anyone provide even a scintilla of objective evidence that gender even exists? Personal experience is not objective. We know that biological sex is objective, but there is not one iota of evidence that gender identity objectively exists. It's a social construction - and social constructions are a matter of opinion. And what's a matter of opinion is a matter of choice.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822796#Comment_117822796

Yes on the regressive stereotypes. I thought we were supposed to be moving away from the whole notion of 'roles' anyway. Isn't that what feminism is partly about.

The boys playing with dolls thing as an indicator of anything is beyond silly of course. To a child they are only objects to play with and a learning experience which is what play is partly about.

I often wonder if maybe some parents go OTT on forcing very young children into roles and perhaps some children recognize it instinctively and react against it. I mean especially when a child is very young that is when parents most do the blue is for a boy and pink is for a girl thing. Stuff like decorating a room in pink sparkly wallpaper or whatever. My little princess kinda thing. And then that reaction is misunderstood by both parents and child. 4 is an age you'd think this could begin to happen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822850#Comment_117822850

That may be your argument over the last few days. It certainly hasn't been mine.

My argument was, and remains, that boys should not be told that they can be a girl by simply feeling it (and vice versa)

You may call me a dinosaur but if being a dinosaur means that I refuse to believe that you can change from a man to a woman, then I'll gladly "identify" as a tyrannosaurus rex.

There is no similarity to the past treatment of gay people and my assertion that boys are boys, girls are girls. Not sure why you keep trying to muddy the water with that.

And as for choosing your gender? How many genders are there exactly?

It's not about forcing children into line. Its about teaching them the basics of biology and also being a parent. Parents (decent parents anyway) don't always just let children choose for themselves.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822855#Comment_117822855

I'm not forcing a child into anything. I am telling a child the very very basics of reality. What gender role do you think I am enforcing?

How many genders are there?

And with all due respect, you don't get to dictate how many words are in my response.

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822850#Comment_117822850

Sorry but the last line in your post comes off far more disingenuous than anything else I've seen in this thread. Nobody has been trying to force children into line one way or the other. To try to reduce the side of the argument you disagree with down to that is bad form.

There's nothing wrong with gently encouraging a child to embrace their biological sex. That doesn't mean that you have to force them to conform to gender stereotypes. Keep the dialogue open, if they truly are trans it's not just going to go away.

I would assume anyone would want to be sure that their child is trans before starting them on that difficult journey (emphasis on their).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822840#Comment_117822840

Of course they do. Your own example was of someone who you suspected of being trans, but they didn't know themselves.

I know people who were pushed into declaring themselves gay, who were in fact bisexual. They confided their confusion and feelings to others while growing up, and other people (teachers, family, friends) decided, for them what should happen next. They could have continued dating girls until adulthood and then dabbled with men later when they were in a better position to do so (as I did), but others took that decision away from them.. The confidants projected their own biases and interests on to others... because that's what people often do.

The simple point is that the trans topic is a strongly charged one full of controversy, and if you've spent any time at all on threads about it, you'll acknowledge how passionate (and often aggressive) advocates of it are. (yes yes, the opposite is true too).. however, there will be people out there who will pressurise, assume, and force others to declare a change of gender or some other public statement of intent because it fits with the reality they want to see.

That's even more likely the case where the subject is very young, impressionable, etc like that of a 5 year old child.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822941#Comment_117822941

I do because you need to be kept on point. Case in point: you blatantly lied when you said i was the doing the forcing and now completely ignored the request for proof.

And you are forcing a child who questions to to stick to the traditional gender. It's been the backbone of your stance all along. You even said you'd take a kid out of school to do so!

Case closed , I've proven my point: you are the one doing the forcing and then lying about me doing it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823127#Comment_117823127

So in my case, who is forcing and how?

Did you not read the bit where I said all suggested scenarios were possible?

And bear in mind, I'm only talking about the case I presented - I don't know the people in your scenarios, so it's not really fair to expect me to comment.

Anne_Widdecombe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823433#Comment_117823433

The formula is simple. Many boys dabble in wearing girls clothes; they may be gay, they may be trans-, they may turn out to be the future World's Strongest Man.

Many teenagers dabble in wearing girls clothes. They may turn out to be straight, too. Maybe they're gay, who knows.

But to allow children, at 4-years old, to assume the certitude of knowing they are trans- is nothing short of an abomination. And parents and teachers who go along with this premature conclusion are actively damaging the child.

Let the child grow up and decide for themselves once maturity (and adolescent hormones) has arrived.

In the meantime, teach children that there are only two sexes. Leave the intellectual baggage of gender identity theory to one side.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823420#Comment_117823420

Please try to be less condescending. I don't need to be kept on point. If you don't like my responses, please feel free to ignore me.

I didn't "blatantly lie". You wanted me to reduce my responses to a singular word so I humoured you that time. I think I explained the nuance to my response subsequently. Out of the two of us, you would be more likely to be forcing the idea of gender identity onto a child. I would simply be in favour of giving them an age appropriate biology lesson and letting them know it isn't possible for a girl to actually be a boy.

I said that I would take my child out of school if it was accepted by teachers that boys and girls are interchangeable. What's that got to do with forcing anyone to do anything?

Again, I'll ask. How many genders are there?

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822850#Comment_117822850

In a similar vein of 'the exact same thing was said of gay people' it is remarkable how trans advocacy are saying and doing the exact same gay things as well.

On a trivial level they have appropriated the word 'queer' as in queergender. They now 'come out of the closet' and have become more 'glamorous and fabulous' adopting all that colourful stuff when in the 80's 90's that wasn't their look at all, because back then trans women would typically style themselves as conservative women and look something like a female politician or a school headmistress with a bob haircut and a female style suit. So there is certainly a rebranding of the look and feel of the transgender scene that looks remarkably the same as the gay scene. I have no doubt this is intentional and not just current fashion threads.

Less trivially this 'I knew at age 4' thing seems to be popping up all the time now in very much the same way parents of gay children used to say when that issue was discussed more often, that they knew or suspected their child was gay at age 3. I used to hear that all the time. The point was of course made to give weight to the argument that gay people were 'born this way'. Of course it's not exactly the same as trans people are now saying they knew themselves they were trans at 3+1, and 4 has become a trend. I don't think it really works though because the younger one says they feel they are in the wrong body the more likely it is they are wrong, not more likely they are right, imo.

So it would seem trans advocacy use pro gay-like arguments when it suits them so one can't be surprised when they get the same anti gay-like argument's back. But isn't it incredibly convenient to be able to say 'they said that about gays'. Suspiciously convenient. "Gays have got their rights - why don't we have ours', a quote from an interview with a transgender person I saw on the BBC website. It's doesn't make any sense whatsoever to say gays have their rights we should have the same, when the specific rights they are asking for are completely different. It's like saying women have got their abortion rights so we should have our transgender rights.

Now to your comment about influencing people to be transgender, I have observed a marked rise in gay people identifying as trans in recent years. Non-binary usually, on social media and particularly gay dating apps. So I wondered if any straight people are equally coming out as non-binary and found this...

https://www.insider.com/9-celebrities-who-identify-as-gender-non-binary-2019-6

So there you have a list of 14 celebrities who came out as either trans/non-binary/gender-fluid, and after looking at their wiki pages, 13 of them were some variety of homosexual to begin with, most infamously Sam Smith and Ellen Paige.

My point is that there absolutely is a trend of gay people being influenced to come out as some variety of trans where they wouldn't have dreamt of it otherwise. I am certain about this. And again isn't it so convenient that there you have a trend that further weaves together the gay and trans scenes.

I'm not creating a moral panic, I'm simply reporting what I see and I intend to report what I see to as many people as I can if ever the subject comes up in conversation, and here of course.

seamus

@Anne_Widdecombe wrote:

And parents and teachers who go along with this premature conclusion are actively damaging the child.

How so?

@AllForIt wrote:

My point is that there absolutely is a trend of gay people being influenced to come out as some variety of trans where they wouldn't have dreamt of it otherwise. I am certain about this.

Must be nice to be so certain about things that don't affect you even in the slightest.

On the other hand, selection bias is a thing that says your certainty is wishful thinking.

Anne_Widdecombe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823893#Comment_117823893

Don't forget that the existence of trans- also has an effect to turn gay people into straight people.

For instance: if you're an otherwise gay man and transition to become a woman, it now means (they argue) that the gay man is actually a straight woman.

This is almost like conversion therapy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823433#Comment_117823433

In your example, nothing had gone beyond your suspicion that someone was trans.. or am I missing something?

Now, if you acted on your suspicion, then, yes, I'd say that you would be forcing your own biases about being trans on to another person (since the person themselves wasn't aware).

I've read everything you've written on the matter... but that doesn't mean that I fully understand what you're thinking vs what I've read here. I suspect that there's a bit of a gap going on there.

I don't know the people in anyone's scenario, nor has that been the case with most scenarios presented on this thread.. but we still comment on them based on our own opinions and biases... I assumed that was a given, that we all understood and appreciated without it needing to be said.

Gentlemanne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823960#Comment_117823960

Not sure how much you care about LGBT people if you're picking noted raging homophobe Anne Widdecombe as your boards persona.