4 year olds able to change gender in Scotland

Anne_Widdecombe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817350#Comment_117817350

It's a slippery slope.

If the environment around which a child develops encourages the idea that, because they periodically wear a dress, that they are a woman, that is damaging. It promotes to the child the idea that what they believe is a material fact.

Who the hell is Eskimohuht?

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817369#Comment_117817369

Well firstly it's not promoting anything.

What is your evidence that respecting a child's requested pronouns will lead to any consequences around their appreciation of material facts? Do you think it will lead to them claiming the sky is green? Or is it something you just made up.

Eskimohunt is a fellow Anne Widdecombe fan whose profile recently disappeared and seems to share all the same opinions as you. Especially the slippery slope arguemnt you just made. But maybe all Anne fans think alike.

Anne_Widdecombe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817422#Comment_117817422

First of all, I've no idea who or what Eskimohuht is.

Second, the idea of a slippery slope is a legitimate one. Once one hurdle is accepted, who knows what will next follow. That's not just my view, but the view of pretty much many people asking this question.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817308#Comment_117817308

No, you didn't because you have consistently sidestepped the issue that any education about pronouns and gender change to four year olds must involve in telling them that it's perfectly acceptable for them to do it. In spite of repeated posts of mine pointing the adult input in showing them about these issues, they're promoting them to the kids. That's why I gave up the first time... because you ignored the points I made, and the associations between what you said. But yeah.. it's all one big lie.

As for the second supposed lie, you said "There have been children declaring their gender looong before the vast vast majority of parents would have even known it was a possibility. Do you think parents in the 80s were encouraging their kids to be gender non-conforming?". That's a statement seeking validity for the declaration of gender by children, and that children should be informed of such an option. Hence a request for evidence before you asked for evidence from me... which you had done earlier in the thread to another poster. Ahh well, I guess I should have known you'd bull your way to do it again.

No doubt that you'll sidestep again.

You have very little experience of kids if you think little boys penises are hidden away... since many will walk around without their pants, or take them out to play with (no different from having a car or a doll) when they get bored. Hell, young boys are prone to take them out so they can show off their pissing skills... and to test boundaries, such as not showing it off in public.

But I guess my earlier question about sly digs has been answered. Fine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817352#Comment_117817352

Which is grand... No, seriously. I'd support that myself. Except that wasn't your objection that I quoted and responded to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817358#Comment_117817358

Because it's a social movement with serious effects on peoples long term psychological and physical well-being... and has serious connotations for how society develops.

And yes, when we consider genuine/traditional trans people, the numbers involved are tiny. However, the numbers of people (and the range of classifications) has expanded considerably over the last decade, as has their impact on society. When such a small number of people can enforce a range of changes on the majority.. then, questions should be asked... especially when people like yourself, seek to stifle criticism or debate by throwing around terms like bigotry.

And it is most definitely not open season on trans people. You make it sound like they're completely defenseless, without individual rights of their own, etc.

I could go on, but there's little point. The manner of your post already judged anyone who disagreed with you on this topic. In any case, there are enough dedicated trans topics. This one is about Gender and small children.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817432#Comment_117817432

Slippery slopes are the least legitimate ideas going. Remember how after gay marriage were supposed to have people marrying horses and brothers marrying?

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817501#Comment_117817501

Yet here we are discussing if 4 year old children can be mature enough to make hugely damaging decisions regarding their sexuality with full "progressive" support.

Honestly, I wouldn't be making bets against bestiality and incest being the next "progressive" civil rights liberation of our lifetimes. If a 4 year old child can consent, why not a 4 year old horse?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817358#Comment_117817358

By birth gender do you mean sex?

I feel like a parrot repeating myself but people seem to continually say sex and gender are completely separate but yet conflate the two when it suits.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817470#Comment_117817470

Again there is no education around pronouns in the Scottish guidance. It simply states that if a child requests pronouns that the teacher respects that request. You've assumed any pronouns request comes from an adults influence but have not shown that in any way to be likely. We know children display ideas around gender and they clearly know that "he" is used for boys and "she" is used for girls. Of course a child does not need adult input to want to be referred to by certain pronouns. Again it only doesn't make sense if you think that children are blank slate dummies until the age of 10 and then magically develop reasoning skills.

I said that children have declared their gender in the past. You said that I asserted that the numbers were not miniscule. So the quote you provided shows you made that up. I never made any claims about numbers. I made a claim about past existence. It's not a sly dig to point out your low comprehension skills. It's an obvious fact.

I never said that children have not seen other children's genitals or associate particular genitals with particular sex/gender. You said that a child's understanding of sex/gender was completely based on biology. If that were true then a child would be unable to tell who was a boy or girl without seeing their genitals first. But that's not the case so a child's understanding is not completely based on biology.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817514#Comment_117817514

I think you just proved my point about how silly slippery slope arguments are. Thanks.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817422#Comment_117817422

If a child did want to describe the sky as green, would you acknowledge that they may be right and their reality is equally as valid as yours so it is unfair to say that the sky isn't green?

It's no more ludicrous than letting a little girl believe they can be a boy.

Gatling

Slippery slope taviststock institute already publicly stated that they have treated 4 year old children ,

The clinic that was handing out puberty blockers to vulnerable children and coaching children how to ask to get puberty blockers ,the idea of a 4 year old picking up a doll and saying I'm a Barbie more than a Barry and suddenly a teacher is going to socially transition them is utterly wrong ,it's not a early years educator Job to transition a child or a primary school teacher for that matter ,

A tiny minority demanding and claiming every class room has several kids who are trans based off anonymous LGBTQ teachers and union it's utterly false and misleading ,and over reaching ,

Guarantee we will get several posters who will claim I knew 3 trans kids in school and another will say they knew more ,yet nothing ever is backed up

Sand

Nah, I don't think I did.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817527#Comment_117817527

Right well I'll wait around for the 4 year old horse bestiality movement. Any day now...

joe40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817525#Comment_117817525

If a little girl wants to say she is a little boy, what's the problem? It is probably a phase and she will grow out of it.

If is a real transgender issue it can be dealt with later.

No one is talking about hormone treatment or surgery for 4 year olds.

Reminds me of attitudes years ago if you discuss homosexuality with kids, you will be creating gay children.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817538#Comment_117817538

20 years ago, you'd be claiming trans issues would never involve children.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817544#Comment_117817544

The problem is that she isn't.

She shouldn't be treated as that she is.

Especially by an authority figure.

Fucking hell. Why is that so hard to understand?

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817548#Comment_117817548

No I wouldn't. More inventing fantasies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817544#Comment_117817544

Bullshit conflation of trans issues with homosexuality.

Sexuality and people's opinions of it have changed.

Biology won't.

joe40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817556#Comment_117817556

Well if you think gender and biological sex are the same thing then fair enough. That would mean transgender people don't exist at all.

Cpxxc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817490#Comment_117817490

With all due respect that's BS!

'Because it's a social movement with serious effects on peoples long term psychological and physical well-being... and has serious connotations for how society develops.'

Utter rubbish. What social movement? Who are 'they'? Is there an actual organisation who are orchestrating this so called 'social movement'

Quote 'When such a small number of people can enforce a range of changes on the majority.. then, questions should be asked...'

Enforce????? Who are these powerful people 'enforcing changes on the majority' ? They don't exist, that's your imagination.

I've been reading and hearing crap like this on every subject since the sixties. It was TV, mini skirts, women's rights, video games and everything.

Then you say 'I could go on, but there's little point. The manner of your post already judged anyone who disagreed with you on this topic.'

'especially when people like yourself, seek to stifle criticism or debate by throwing around terms like bigotry.'

Classic sophistry. I haven't stifled your debate or criticism. I'm pointing out the absurdity of your position. You are entitled to be a bigot. I'm entitled to point that out.

Of course I could be wrong and you actually believe you have a reasonable and fair minded attitude to this issue despite your obvious utter lack of knowledge and insight.

You clearly know nothing about what you speak of. But yeah it's a free country. Go for it.

Oh yes should you accuse me of ad hominen. I didn't target you, in fact I haven't even noticed your username. I merely pointed out the absurdity of of the so called opinions of people like you.

.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817559#Comment_117817559

I think gender and sex are completely different.

Can you give me your understanding of gender and tell me how many genders there are?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117816359#Comment_117816359

Interesting you say that, I have identified the collective groups we see behave this way on here as being members of the Status Quo fan club for that very reason.

And unsurprisingly, none of them have made any attempt to answer the question.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817517#Comment_117817517

Again there is no education around pronouns in the Scottish guidance.

That first line is the sidestep. I've said it enough times, and you keep ignoring it. For children that age to be aware of pronouns to the extent of wanting to change them, then someone would be explaining the concepts behind them. And that pushes an agenda. It also opens up those children to further Trans concepts because the conditioning is allowed to begin so early.

I'll leave it at that because I've responded to you numerous times and you've repeatedly ignored my points.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817566#Comment_117817566

Just as you're entitled to be a bigot, although you'll never accept your behavior as being such. Since you have a crusade to promote, regardless of the negatives for the people involved. It's a social movement due to the demands for rights in society, and as with feminism, or a dozen other social movements, there doesn't need to be a central organisation involved.

The first problem with the trans movement is their advocates who feel the need to be hyper aggressive whenever they receive any opinions that don't match their own, or involve criticism of Trans issues overall. The second problem being that "Trans" is an umbrella terms encompassing a bewildering wide range of beliefs, and expectation of "rights", while being subject to internal change every few months. And third, that there are real serious negatives for both the psychological and physical aspects of lives for those who seek to transition. However, that will be ignored.

I've also seen a wide variety of social change (in spite of my apparent lack of knowledge and insight, although how you know this is a mystery). I know the changes in regards to homosexuality firsthand due to my own sexuality and place in society... and in spite of the constant desire by trans advocates to say that they're similar causes... they weren't. Not even close. The Trans movement is something else entirely.. and should be treated as such. We should be cautious about embracing it, and the changes it brings, until we have better long-term research to determine just how dangerous it could be.

But that's not going to matter to advocates like yourself. You want change now, and that's it. No negotiation. Everyone else must capitulate to accept your beliefs.

As for As hominens, I rarely bother to complain about them, unless they're particularly nasty. Mostly, I just stop dealing with the poster involved.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817649#Comment_117817649

Change isn't always a positive, and sometimes (quite often) keeping to the Status Quo is far better than making short-sighted changes. After all, in many cases, the traditional systems have worked extremely well in westerns society for the majority.

Unsurprisingly, many people are protective towards small children. And rightly so.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818007#Comment_117818007

Sidestep? Another reading comprehension fail. I DIRECTLY addressed your point about parents influencing their kids re: pronouns in my post. I said that as children have ideas about their gender and are aware of pronoun usage they do not need to be influenced to think that certain pronouns need to be used for themselves without any input from parents.

Why are you constantly making up false things about my posts.

Twice you've claimed I've directly stated things and have been unable to quote where I said them.

And now you claim I sidestep a point I directly dealt with.

Bizarre.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818084#Comment_117818084

Can you use the same logic to justify arguing against multiculturalism, BLM protests, climate change activism, footballers protesting against racism, people who advocate for women on a variety of topics, suggestions that police should be held accountable for how they do their jobs etc etc.

Because its the consistency of positions of conservatives against the majority (and seemingly 100% of anything that is rumored to be woke) that I find interesting and asked about. Oh, and why they don't ever appear interesting in advocating for anything that might make life better, even for themselves is also curious to me.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117817567#Comment_117817567

Then when you say a little girl can't be a little boy, is that besed on the child's biological sex or gender?

Would you say the same about an adult woman being a man? If not, why does the distinction - and JUST the distinction - change?