No will made - what now?

Peig Sayers

My friend is at the end of their life with only a few weeks left to live. They are married but have been seperated for over thirty years and haven't seen each other in that time. Their spouse has a new partner but not married to them. They have a child with my friend.

My friend hasn't made a will. They own no property and have a small amount of money in the post office. What happens when they die? Does that money go to the former spouse automatically or can their child have it? What is the best thing to do in this situation? I don't want to add to the stress my friend is under at this stage in their life.

Mrs OBumble

Are they capable of opening a credit union account? Move the money to that and name the child as the beneficiary if they die.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058206221/no-will-made-what-now

Do nothing unless the situation is causing stress for your friend. The small amount of money will be of little consequence in the long term.

Peig Sayers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117815154#Comment_117815154

It's about 13k and the child is an adult who will have no access to the money for I presume a very long time?

Jim_Hodge

The law is fairly clear

• You are married with children Spouse takes two thirds – children take one third between them

Hard as it seems he needs to make a will. It doesn't take long or much stress to do. My own brother had to do so within weeks of his death.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818218#Comment_117818218

No, they can get the money very quickly and without the need for probate if you follow the advice given by poster Mrs O Bumble above.

If you open an account in a credit union, you can make a 'nomination' whereby the person nominated can receive up to €23,000 on the death of the account holder. The credit union will pay out the money on being notified of the death of the member and they can cut a cheque for the nominee straight away. It's not affected by anything in the account holder's will (if any), it doesn't matter if there is a spouse and/or children and it does not rely on the process of probate being completed.

It's the quickest way to get money from the account of a deceased person and has it's roots in the old industrial and provident societies. The legislation which regulated these bodies contained the provision whereby they were allowed to release money to the nominee (typically a family member) to bury the account holder. That has been carried over to the current legislation governing credit unions and is now provided for by S.21 of the Credit Union Act 1997. By ministerial regulation (SI), the amount has been gradually increased and is now €23,000.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/15/section/21/enacted/en/html#sec21

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818574#Comment_117818574

Even if he makes a will, his estranged spouse is entitled to a minimum one-third of his estate......

111.—(1) If the testator leaves a spouse and no children, the spouse shall have a right to one-half of the estate.

(2) If the testator leaves a spouse and children, the spouse shall have a right to one-third of the estate.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1965/act/27/section/111/enacted/en/html#sec111

The ony way to ensure that the child gets all of that money is to bung it into a CU account and make a nomination in their favour. As outlined in the previous post.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818218#Comment_117818218

If they have online banking, transfer the money to the childs account now or set up online banking and then do it. Alternatively, contact the bank a day in advance and arrange a cash withdrawl for the following day.

Peig Sayers

Thanks everyone. The money is in the post office where they get their disability payment paid into. I don't know how long it would take to transfer into a credit union account? Time isn't of the essence unfortunately.

cnocbui

An Post accounts seem to have the ability to have online access enabled. Enable the online access and provide the information required to access the account online to the child, who could then login and transfer the money to their own account. https://www.anpost.com/Money/Current-Account

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818218#Comment_117818218

If the adult "child" can be trusted, why not just let the money "rest" in thier account, and they would have it instantly.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117820062#Comment_117820062

They can setup a nomination on a post office that works the same way as the credit union. they can nominate the child and all the money would go directly to them.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818218#Comment_117818218

Sorry, I thought the amount was much smaller than that.

13k is enough to cause trouble in the family depending on their situation.

Your friend should consult a solicitor and you should not give any advice in order to protect yourself.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117819374#Comment_117819374

This would seem the most efficient and fool proof way.

The ex could challenge this but for the sums you are talking about it would not be worthwhile

coylemj

Poster eiperello: Your friend should consult a solicitor and you should not give any advice in order to protect yourself.

Protect yourself from what? I suggested the the OP's friend put the money into a CU and make a nomination. What are the possible repercussions you think the OP would be exposed to, if he passes on that or any other advice he gets here?

If the OP's friend dies and his money goes to B instead of A as a result of a perfectly legal step taken by the deceased, there is nothing that A can do about it. Nobody who advises the OP's friend on his options has anything to worry about.

Peig Sayers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822234#Comment_117822234

Thanks but the only account is the post office one. I'm not sure they'd be able to physically make it to the post office to arrange this.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117828306#Comment_117828306

I don't think they need to go physically to the post office to arrange a nomination. get somebody else to get the form from the post office, fill it in, and send it off.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822289#Comment_117822289

I should have made it clearer that I was thinking of non legal repercussions. Bad feeling, family falling out, that sort of thing.

I stand by my advice both to the OP and the friend.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834115#Comment_117834115

If you were thinking of 'non legal repercussions', why advise someone to go to a solicitor?

exaisle

If the money is transferred to a credit union account with a third party as nominee, does it form part of the deceased estate?

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837533#Comment_117837533

If the nomination (max. €23,000) covers the entire amount in the account, the answer is no. If there is money left in the account, it does form part of the estate.

S.21 (4) A nomination by a member of a credit union under subsection (1) may be revoked or varied by a subsequent nomination by him under that subsection or by any similar document in the nature of a revocation or variation signed by the nominator and delivered to the credit union's registered office during his lifetime; but such a nomination shall not be revocable or variable by the will of the nominator or by any codicil to his will.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/15/section/21/enacted/en/html

Claw Hammer

If the money is put into a joint account, the survivor automatically takes all.

beachhead

If,the money can be transferred to a credit union account the "noninated" person or the co signer of the account can get access to the money and close the account.The credit union will need to know why,but usually allow the withdrawal.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837477#Comment_117837477

I recommended that the friend should consult a solicitor not the OP.

It is the OP who might have to face any fall out from the family if they get involved in advising the friend.

Peig Sayers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839153#Comment_117839153

My friend is too Ill to consult a solicitor. I will give them the nomination form from the post office and leave it up to them. Not worried about fall out!

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837533#Comment_117837533

Not if the nominee withdraws the money while the benefactor is still alive.

dotsman

Is there a reason they cannot simply gift the money to their child now?

Ultimately, who is going to pay for the funeral (could easily cost the full 13K)!

Peig Sayers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843157#Comment_117843157

Funeral costs are sorted. I went to the post office today and asked for a nomination form to be told they don't have them any more? I was given a form for notification of death instead. Don't really want to hand this to my friend. How can they gift the money? They're more or less bed bound now.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843644#Comment_117843644

Can they enable online banking on the account and just pass the login details to the son so they can then login and transfer the money to their own account?

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842890#Comment_117842890

They don't have to withdraw it. I was a nominee on a CU account and was given the money, plus death grant, separate from the estate of the deceased.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845475#Comment_117845475

The poster you replied to (and quoted) was talking about the nominee withdrawing the money while the nominator (the account holder) is alive.

Which is not possible, the nominee has no rights over the account while the nominator is alive. Because at any stage, the nominator could (1) get married, which would void the nomination or (2) he could revoke the nomination.

You are correct in that when the nominator dies, the nominee doesn't actually withdraw money from the account, the CU cuts a cheque and hands or posts it to you.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844890#Comment_117844890

That would expose the son to the accusation of defrauding his mother out of her (potential) inheritance. The account holder would need to do the transfer. Or write the son a cheque.

Billgirlylegs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843644#Comment_117843644

If this a blue book account, write a letter, get your friend to sign it and send it in to the GPO.

State that the account holder wants to set up a new Nomination in favour of their child. They will confirm if this arrangement is still possible(it used to be, but I don't know if it was discontinued).

Otherwise, if your friend dies, their spouse has a claim as per earlier post. Hope you and they can get sorted.

coylemj

Does a nomination from a Post Office savings account have the same legal protection as a nomination under S.21 of the Credit Union Act 1997?

If I have no assets other than €23,000 cash and I have a living spouse and children, I can put my money into a CU account, fill out a nomination form for the full amount in favour of my mistress and when I die, the CU will give her the money and there is nothing that my wife or children can do about it. Does the same apply when we're talking about a nomination from a PO account?

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858755#Comment_117858755

I have been an executor and stand by my suggestion. Good luck to the mother trying to prove anything and in finding a solicitor with fees so low as to make the attempt worthwhile. Account login details trump all else if acted on before an account is frozen.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859299#Comment_117859299

I have also been an executor and stand by my assertion that your suggestion (son moves the money) would amount to depriving someone (his mother) out of their legal entitlement. The moral rights and wrongs of it are neither here nor there in a legal forum.

cnocbui

If the father tells the son the money is his, and to take his login details and transfer the money to his own account, and he does so while he is still alive, then it's not anything the wife is entitled to. It only becomes an estate issue after the father has died.

diggerdigger

Assuming there is no other estate to mention, then gift the money before they die. Just transfer it and document the gift with a signed letter. Its no executors business in that case. And if they are within allowances historically to date, no tax. IMO we leave too much to wills. and probate, and executors.

dotsman

If the father is of sound mind, there's no issue gifting the money to the child. It is only when the father dies that the mother has a legal claim. Until then, the father can do whatever he likes with his money (assuming the account is in his name and not a joint account with the mother, or there is some pre-existing agreement to give the mother the money). If the father is bed bound and does not have internet or phone banking, then there are practical issues to gifting the money, but not legal. If he doesn't have internet/phone banking, does the father even have a cheque book? If not, can he get internet banking set up?

Peig Sayers

Thanks everyone. My friend doesn't have a cheque book and only has a post office account which is not an online one. I will suggest downloading the app so they can have it up and running should they wish to transfer the money to their child while they still can. I can do no more!

Thanks for the help everyone.