If the DUP collapse Stormont...

Shield

If the DUP collapses Stormont, they will get to see just how many supporters they have lost to either the UUP or the TUV.

Everyone sees Donaldson using signalling language, like being ‘fearful of further unrest’. Don’t be surprised if you see more petrol bombs being thrown by (sometimes, but not always) 14yo youths while (some of) their parents are just innocently sitting on a wall giving the orders.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117877131#Comment_117877131

Beattie seems to be one of the first unionist leaders with a bit of cop on. The TUV kind of version can't succeed in the medium term anyway, the Beattie type of approach is the only one that can possibly be successful with demographics as they are.

briany

Fair bit of a leap to say it would be a precursor to a United Ireland, imo. Over the last decade, Stormont being a functional legislature has nearly been an exception rather than the rule, so it's not even an unknown quantity. If enough people in NI become convinced that their lot would be better in a UI (and that means in a very real economic sense in terms of work, education and social support), then we may see a United Ireland. Until then, a collapsed Stormont is just another indicator of the unending tribalism which underpins NI society. The leading parties in NI can barely work together at the best of times. What's new?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117875984#Comment_117875984

Indeed, a functioning democracy for the very few (wealthy) people who could vote. And don't forget the Rotten Buroughs!

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886491#Comment_117886491

What tribe are you part of Brainy?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886736#Comment_117886736

Have you anything to say on the actual topic, or do you just label and rubbish anyone who disagrees with you?

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887835#Comment_117887835

What some Irish Nationalists are saying is that because we live on an Island, the majority rules! Which of course is ridiclious.

There is only a non-nationalist majority east of the Bann. And defo not in South Armagh.

NI was setup as the minimum viable statelet with a Unionist majority. But it hasn't been viable for a long time. The subvention is one third of the rest of the economy. The civil service and public sectors are relatively large. IIRC most working women are employed by the govt rather than in the private sector.

If the DUP pull the rug the Tories might do a bit of imposing laws over their heads like they did during the last time Stornmont was on standby. The Tories are getting hammered over NI. ie. the National Insurance increase of $12Bn which is conveniently close to the subvention.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887886#Comment_117887886

Why should any Irish Nationalist be allowed to make any Unionist a second-class citizen in their own country?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887876#Comment_117887876

Essentially what you saying is that Ulster Unionists should all just 'go home' and let Ireland to the Irish. You don't even see the slightest issue with this?

Unionists didn't intervene in the War of Independence, they didn't really care too much if Cork or Dublin had their own state. But they did care if Belfast was to be subsumed into the new Free State, hence their resistance for the sake of Ulster.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887902#Comment_117887902

You do know Prior to 1921 Ireland was one of the nations of the UK.... not the ROI and NI. The majority of the nation wanted independence but because some in the north of the nation didn't they created a gerrymandered part of Ireland to stay within the UK. This has obviously caused a lot of contention by splitting the nation.

Under your crusty logic should counties in the North that have a majority in favour of uniting with the South leave? With about a Town? Or a street in a Town? At what boundary is it fair to split people by majority? Should the UK have been split with brexit? Scotland stays in the EU and England leaves?

They were originally going to have 9 counties in the North but then they changed it to 6. It is a made up place.

BTW in the early 20th century nearly everyone in the North referred to themselves as Irish including prodesents. This we are not Irish because we are unionists was born in the apartheid over the 20th century..... another proof that it is a failure.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887898#Comment_117887898

They shouldn't, everyone in Ireland should have equal citizenship.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887898#Comment_117887898

They didn't, the unionists made sure they stayed on top by whatever means required. Now they throw their toys out of the pram at the thought of parity.

Not to worry though, demographics will have a UI in the next few decades.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888020#Comment_117888020

Once they are all ruled from Dublin?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887978#Comment_117887978

Well, Ireland was never unified politically either if you want to go back further. The only time Ireland was United was under British rule.

As I said, just because we are one Island geographically does not automatically mean that there should only be one government.

The island of Britain is made up of England, Scotland, and Wales, yet Irish Nationalists and Scottish Nationalists will make the case that Scotland should be independent, yet Northern Ireland should be subsumed into the Republic, because the majority in the whole Island wills it, regardless of what NI actually want.

At the end of the day, if you accepted the GFA then you will cede that it is up to the people of NI themselves whether or not to join the Republic of Ireland as one country. In other words, the people of NI including the Unionists can democratically vote for it. That is the key now, and that was the key in 1921 and 1922. No amount of gnashing of teeth over historical grudges will change this fact.

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888167#Comment_117888167

What would the problem be with that? No-one would be expecting them to renounce their Britishness, a new United Ireland will also have unionist political representation.

I don't see the issue myself, the days of a nation treating certain factions of its own people are hopefully gone now, unionists have nothing to fear in a united Ireland.

The true belligerent unionists will never be happy in anything other than a partitioned state where they can lord it over their inferiors anyway, and those types should be offered assisted passage to Britain, if they aren't happy with any new setup, if they refuse to adapt and change.

Podge_irl

Of course Unionists have something to "fear" in a United Ireland. They are against the entire concept and view it no differently from how Nationalists view the partition itself in the first place.

I struggle to see how any argument you can make for the lack of impact of unification on Unionists could not be turned around to make the exact same argument for maintaining partition.

Ultimately we all agreed that NI would self-determine what would happen - that includes the Unionists in NI.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888167#Comment_117888167

They will not ruled from anywhere, they will be citizens in a democratic nation.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888503#Comment_117888503

They are citizens in a democratic nation now, so there is nothing to gain from a united Ireland.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888887#Comment_117888887

They are in the remants of a sectarian colonial project to subject a neighbouring nation. Not the same thing at all, as you well know.

I ask you the same question that i asked Mark Daly, which of course he did not answer. If a load of Afghans come to your street and demand that it be ruled from Kabul and that women wear burkas do you support this?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888954#Comment_117888954

What are you talking about Afghans for? They have nothing to do with the conversation.

Like it or not, Ulster Unionists have established a distinct and separate identity on this island from the Irish identity. They are not the remnants of a sectarian colonial project to subject a neighbouring nation.

The failure to recognise that we can no longer have "Ireland for the Irish" is the biggest flaw in Irish nationalism. We should never again talk about uniting territory but about uniting people.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888391#Comment_117888391

Maybe you should ask them?

Would you be OK with being ruled by Westminister? If no, why not. Maybe there is a correlation in there somewhere with Unionists not wanted to be ruled from Dublin?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888503#Comment_117888503

Lovely, exactly like Ireland so in 1914.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889035#Comment_117889035

The Afghans are an example. Answer the question. Do you believe that a group of foreigners should be able to take over part of the country if it suits them?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889179#Comment_117889179

They've been here 400 years. Curious as to what your cut-off point before people are no longer foreigners.

Do we need to disenfranchise everyone of Norman ancestry?

Mullaghteelin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889225#Comment_117889225

Unlike the old Normans who became "more Irish than the Irish", the Northern Unionists have failed to integrate. The DUPs continued resistance to the Irish language is highly symbolic. Their ancestors were sent here to control and subjugate the native population, including ridding us of the language.

In that sense, not only were they successful at divide and conquer, but their descendants are STILL at it today!

400 years and very little has changed really.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887835#Comment_117887835

You are speaking as if both are homogeneous. A large number of the Unionist community accepted, and still accept the very simple facts that to ensure security of the GFA, and the security of the Single Market that a land border was never possible.

The small and diminishing number of DUP supporters along with the TUV are opposition with a loud hailer and a stick. The DUP have made explicit threats and supported violence in recent months, and still have gained no traction. These factions represent a very small minority of Northern Ireland's voters and that will soon be reflected in the political class too.

The DUP have waited until within 8 or so months of an election, to threaten to bring down an Institution within 2 months if they don't get their way, the Devolution deal means an election within 24 weeks of that date anyway.

It's theatre by the DUP to ensure they still appear hard-line before the elections, which would likely fall at the same time whatever course of action they take.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888391#Comment_117888391

Ah yes, the old trope, kick them out of Ireland. The forced displacement approach.

The GFA has guaranteed them their birthright to be British. You can't take that away.

Why would a new United Ireland have unionist political representation? That is the way of those who view the world in sectarian terms.

The reality is that nationhood should no longer be linked to territory. That is the real achievement of the GFA when the South renounced its territorial claim and replaced it with an aspiration to united all of the people while recognising their diverse identities. A united people doesn't require a united territory.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889179#Comment_117889179

They are not foreigners. With the GFA, we have recognised the legitimacy of the British identity on this island.

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889565#Comment_117889565

What is it exactly you hope to achieve by trying to argue points no-one made, in fact I said the polar opposite to what you're trying to suggest with the above, usual, nonsense, bar making me believe you possibly have reading comprehension issues?

I never suggested "kicking anyone out", I (like you) actually alluded to their guarantee of "Britishness"

A new United Ireland would obviously have representation from a unionist persuasion, unless of course you are suggesting the unionists in the north have no political voice at all in any political future upon a shared united Island?

What I did say, was that any true belligerent unionists, the kind of folk who will never accept any new shared island, even if it is brought about by the GFA (an internationally recognised agreement) should be offered assisted passage if they are not prepared to accept the changes brought about via same.

Here is my post quoted once again, with the pertinent parts in bold.

Originally Posted by McMurphy

What would the problem be with that? No-one would be expecting them to renounce their Britishness, a new United Ireland will also have unionist political representation.

I don't see the issue myself, the days of a nation treating certain factions of its own people are hopefully gone now, unionists have nothing to fear in a united Ireland.

The true belligerent unionists will never be happy in anything other than a partitioned state where they can lord it over their inferiors anyway, and those types should be offered assisted passage to Britain, if they aren't happy with any new setup, if they refuse to adapt and change.

It would actually be easier, and less time consuming (for everyone) if you were to argue actual points made, instead of pretending posters said something you wished/hoped they said.

Why you bother, considering you can be so easily pulled on it is beyond me, but don't let me stop you.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890023#Comment_117890023

"those types should be offered assisted passage to Britain...........if they refuse to adapt and change."

That part which you bolded yourself, points to the involuntary nature of your proposal. It is a proposal borne of 19th century thinking at best. The British identity will have to be cherished and protected in any united Ireland. The attitude that you and others display towards it is already antediluvian in nature and has no place in modern society.

The world is moving beyond borders as symbols of nationhood and tribe. Assisted passage to Britain and suchlike notions belong in the past.