Football's Difficult Conversations

~Rebel~

Since the other thread was closed, I wanted to open another, just so there's at least a place for these conversations to take place and live. That in itself seems to be a big part of the problem with these sorts of issues within sports - the outlets that cater to each individual sport don't want to spend much time on it, leaving it to the news division (despite many being quite happy to throw out stories on football 'love rats' or other non-football nonsense). But it's the sporting outlets that primarily get the focus and attention of the fan, so it feels like sports pages should have a responsibility to properly cover it for the target market it most concerns.

I linked a Max Rushden Guardian article in the other thread that was mostly a piece simply asking questions around this subject, and he asks a lot of decent points to consider - when do you, or can you, bring up these things? How often, and in what contexts? Are you allowed to disrupt a love-in, without simply being waved away as jealous? I don't know the answers, but what I would say is they at least need to be reported enough that there's a solid awareness of troubling issues to go along with all the fanfare and stats. The legacy being built by the media needs to be complete. This goes for institutions as much as players. And the other side of it has to be that fans have to learn to find some bit of objectivity, and allow their fandom shields to come down a bit. I'm as guilty of that as anyone, having bought into some of the support of Suarez 10 years ago after his racist remarks. A bit of age and life experience has totally changed my opinion on that (and on many things).

Of course there's always a tricky grey area when it comes to allegations versus convictions (sexual assault cases being notoriously difficult to convict, especially if any time passes at all), but even in the case of Kingsley Coman, he pled guilty to beating up his partner a few years ago, and I'd say most of us never even knew. And even if we can't talk about an allegation as if it's a conviction, we SHOULD look at the information available, and particularly the participants' actions since. Like with Neymar and Nike - this story should have been absolutely massive, but the only time I've seen it mentioned on boards is when I mentioned it. One of the biggest players in the world was dropped by the biggest sports brand in the world because of allegations of sexual misconduct against one of Nike's employees. Now, we don't know if he did it. But we do know that he refused to co-operate with their investigation, and actively obstructed it where possible. Same with Ronaldo. Himself and Juve bent over backwards to not take part in the investigation over the past few years, pulling out of a US preseason tour to avoid him being taken in for questioning upon landing on US soil, and blocking the serving of papers to the player that is a required part of the process for as long as possible. Whether innocent or guilty, the active efforts of players and people to hinder the process is not good enough.

On the Ronaldo thing, I'd recommend everyone to simply go read the Der Spiegel reportage, because it really is proper quality journalism. It's also built from Rui Pinto's 'Football Leaks' tranche of hacked materials - so far none of which (of millions of documents) have been shown to be fabrications. I don't want to link it here in the OP (it's very easy to find with a quick google anyway), because I don't want that distinct case to become the lightning rod for fandom rivalries that are always a risk as soon as anything divisive is brought up. Ideally I think this thread should be the place where the more difficult conversations/events that aren't all that welcome in team Superthreads can perhaps live.

Iago

Is it a difficult conversation though?

surely it’s as simple as everyone guilty of a crime should be punished equally regardless of status. Conversation closed.

in practice this obviously doesn’t happen, whether it’s due to privilege, status, money, fame or any other bias that impacts on the correct judicial process. I don’t think there’s any specific element that applies to sportspeople over other people that avoid justice other than a more widespread fame, but even then it’s the same as media personalities, actors, musicians, wealthy scions etc.

Are we really expecting anyone to post a contrary view to the above?

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117880879#Comment_117880879

I suppose the 'difficult conversation' aspects comes around the continued fandom and lack of criticism towards players and clubs.

We have people shouting for politicians to be sacked for the smallest indiscretions, while actively supporting players either guilty of real crimes, or engaging in obstruction of investigations into real crimes. Same goes for club ownership practices... it's the fan reluctance to engage in looking at the whole picture of their hero/club in favour of slicing off only the piece of entertainment that they want, and ignoring the rest.

Fans on a scale that is larger than one would reasonably expect simply seem to just not want to know. And I think a big part of the lack of coverage is because fans don't want to know. Which of course leads to a bit of a cycle of ignorance and avoidance.

I mean, I saw your own post on the other thread questioning why the poster hadn't been posting about this for 12 years - when the allegations were only made public in 2018, perhaps hinting towards your own lack of awareness of the case. And I get it... it's not what we come to sport for. But it's there, and I think should be recognised at the very least.

Mr.Nice Guy

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trial by media in these instances. Remember what happened to Dave Jones' coaching career? For those not familiar with his story...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Jones_%28footballer%2C_born_1956%29

I did jury service one time and I remember the judge making very clear to us jurors that there was a presumption of innocence on the defendant. The defendant, we were told, does not have to prove his innocence; rather, it is up to the prosecution to prove his guilt. This seems reasonable to me.

Iago

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117880922#Comment_117880922

i seem to remember that case coming up before 2018 but I could be mistaken for sure. Still begs the question as to why now (and only since it seemed he was signing for united instead of city) it’s become a hot topic here..well, it doesn’t beg the question because the answer is obvious.

That aside, it’s absolutely something that should be covered as much as any other similar case in the system. I guess specifically on that case because it’s only civil and not criminal there may be a wider range of restrictions, i.e. there’s been widespread reporting on the Mendy case which is a criminal investigation so maybe that’s part of why..but I’m pulling things out of the air as I’ve no understanding of the legalities around what can or can’t be reported on, like most here I guess.

when it comes to the continued fandom, I guess I’m a bit torn. In general, if a crime has been committed and there is sufficient evidence of same then everyone should have the same restrictions within the justice system, remand with or without bail based on the judiciary view of the case.

I suppose the issue for me is that I’m pretty dispassionate about it overall. I don’t care if it’s Ronaldo or Salah or Joe from Cork (sorry to any and all Joes from Cork) they should all be treated equally and punished equally if found guilty of a crime. So for me, it isn’t a difficult conversation but I accept that there may be others who for reasons of fan loyalty maybe think that due process shouldn’t be followed. Maybe conversation and education brings us closer to equal treatment for all, certainly shouldn’t harm the situation anyway.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881004#Comment_117881004

Yeah, I totally understand that perspective, and would largely agree... I would just add that someone's behaviour that comes out in the process of investigation is still worthy of discussion though. Like, for instance the Ulster rugby lads. Found innocent, but the details of their behaviour that came out in the process both through testimony and 'discovery' with the contents of their texts etc were still abhorrant.

These things also go well beyond just the few cases I mentioned though - it's the same with things like the abuses occurring within the youth 'football factory'. As a subject it got its brief flicker of attention a few years ago after an investigation, but has since basically fallen away as a subject in a way that just feels a bit weird..

Iago

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881024#Comment_117881024

On that specific point I liken it to any body that has significant influence, catholic church, tobacco industry, NRA, fast food industry etc etc

as long as they have significant influence they can make stories go away or be buried deeper than they should, but as their influence wanes in countries or regions we start to get a truer picture of what went on. It absolutely shouldn’t be the case, and I’m not sure anyone would argue against greater transparency and accountability in all walks of life.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881011#Comment_117881011

Yeah, I'd agree with a lot of what you're saying - though as for 'why now', these issues always arise when a person rises to prominence again, as a natural backlash against the universal fanfare that always come out. There's a natural a 'well, hang on a sec...'. An interesting version of this was Kobe Bryant's death last year, where I read and listened to a lot of stuff around the issues of his own sexual assault allegations, and when it was ok to include that as part of his legacy amidst this glowing tribute to his life. And it's really tricky! Like, you need to be respectful of those close to the person, but equally you need to be respectful to survivors of assault and not whitewash away events to fit in with a present glowing narrative.

I'd say again though, there's a big space between Innocent and Guilty. We can be critical of someone's behaviour, even if that behaviour is not criminal. Like the Neymar case - whether innocent or guilty, his behaviour in relation to the investigation is fairly poor.

DM_7

Mod:

just to be clear, the last thread was closed because the first post stated, as if a matter of fact, that a crime has taken place.

It is fine to discuss how the bigger conversations can take place and once we all make an effort to avoid such posting (as above) then the thread should or could be fine.

Words like alleged will be important to consider as definitive statements that imply any criminal wrongdoing are not going to be hosted here. Places like the guardian have editors and legal people to make sure wording used will not get them in bother.

Iago

I completely accept that the behavior seems really poor from the outside looking in. I also have room in my though process to consider why it would seem that way. We don’t live in the bubbles that these people do, from the time they’re young teee agers they are surrounded by people who are looking for something from them.

i’ve no doubt that Neymar (and others) pay a stupid amount of money every year for advisors and if the advisors are saying ‘this is the way’ then that’s probably what they go with.....again, complete speculation..another subject I don’t have the first idea on or first hand knowledge of.

Related sidenote ; when Biden declared the US were pulling out of Afghanistan there was a piece in some publication highlighting the media reaction (almost universally negative...never should have been there etc etc) and comparing it to the same media sources at the outset of the war (absolutely correct thing to do, no doubt whatsoever that this is the right thing, fake reporting etc etc)

their point was that for the average joe on the street...this is the prism through which we view most things that we don’t have first hand knowledge of..and there is always an agenda behind it.

the truth is, we don’t know the truth, just what’s reported in the mean time.

HalloweenJack

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58500267.amp

Jerome Boateng was convicted of assaulting his ex the other day.

Will Lyon be cancelling his contract?

There's also cases related to Robinho and Mancini (ex Inter and Roma) which make you wonder how they still get work. There was a bit of backlash against Santos when they signed Robinho but there'll still be some club out there who'll give him a job.

Agent Coulson

Ajax knew all about Overmars behaviour before giving him a payrise and contract extension.

https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1492877491920322563?s=20&t=oETAR-z3jwUcm2LEjg1l_A

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118625429#Comment_118625429

The more details come out, the more it looks like they might well have tried to just internally sanction and keep it all behind closed doors, if not for the NRC report going on outside (and even then, it was left for Overmars to fall on his own sword rather than the club actually firing him).

Even the way its largely covered is a bit weird, focusing more on what Ajax have lost, as if they're the victim, rather than about the actual people he was harassing.

Decent write up on it all in the Athletic anyway (long, as usual though)

https://theathletic.com/3111946/2022/02/12/total-misogyny-ajax-marc-overmars-culture-sexual-misconduct/?redirected=1

Scoundrel

Doping is another difficult conversation as well that football just won't have. <Mod snip: can't say that here>

There was also a Spanish doctor who was caught doping cyclists but was also allegedly doping footballers and tennis players but was told to shut up about them blood samples still exist allegedly.

DM_7

Re Pep, that was appealed

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/may/11/pep-guardiola-drug-test-appeal-brescia

Scoundrel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627284#Comment_118627284

Indeed and OJ was found not guilty. Doping is another one of football's difficult conversations and one that will never be had.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/may/10/spanish-doping-doctor-reveal-sports

DM_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628069#Comment_118628069

OJ has nothing to do with the fact Pep is not convicted of anything as a result of his appeal. You are welcome to have any suspicions or doubts about any such finding but you or I can't just comment in a way that says things that are not proven have happened when it comes to legal matters.

Scoundrel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628189#Comment_118628189

Fair enough re Pep. The wider issue of doping in football is one which is always swept under the carpet.

rob316

18 year old multi millionaires, whose only contribution to society is they can kick a ball well. Told they can do pretty much what they want and have what they want by their agents, friends encourage their behavior too. I see vulture agents hawk these kids around Europe like precious commodities.

What is going on behind closed doors in every club, wouldn't even shock, use our imaginations and its probably happened or happening. If pay 50m for a player and are giving him another 50m over five years, you'll bend every rule to protect them.

Agent Coulson

Robinho on the most wanted list as Italy issue a global arrest warrant for him.

Judges at Italy’s top court last month upheld a nine-year sentence for the footballer’s part in an attack on a young woman in January 2013.

ITALIAN PROSECUTORS ON Tuesday issued an international arrest warrant for former Brazil forward Robinho and asked for his extradition following confirmation of his conviction for gang rape, news agencies reported.

Judges at Italy’s top court, the Court of Cassation in Rome, last month upheld a nine-year sentence for the footballer’s part in an attack on a young woman in January 2013, when Robinho was playing for AC Milan.

On Tuesday, prosecutors in Milan forwarded the request for extradition and the arrest warrant to the ministry of justice, Italy’s ANSA and AGI news agencies reported.

Neither prosecutors nor the ministry immediately responded to an AFP request for comment.

Jacopo Gnocchi, the lawyer for the victim, told AFP it made no difference to his client whether Robinho served his sentence in Italy or Brazil.

“The main thing is he serves it, particularly for the crime committed, to protect women,” he said.

The media reports noted that while Brazil’s constitution bans the extradition of its citizens, the international warrant means Robinho could be at risk of arrest if he travels elsewhere.

The now 38-year-old, capped 100 times for Brazil, was among a group of six men accused of taking part in the rape of an Albanian woman celebrating her 23rd birthday in a Milan nightclub.

Robinho started his career at Santos in 2002 and joined Real Madrid in 2005, going on to play for Manchester City from 2008 to 2010, and Milan for four years until 2014.

https://www.the42.ie/robinho-global-arrest-warrant-italy-5683683-Feb2022/

Funny that a member of the royal family is considered guilty by most for having agreed to pay compensation.

Yet Kathryn Mayorga was considered a gold digger by many when Ronaldo paid compensation to her.

Kurt Zouma considered a horrible excuse for a human when he is caught kicking a cat.

Yet ANOTHER expose on the cruelty involved in the animal for profit industry, on the BBC, and where is the internet full of all the outrage ?

Humans really are a weird bunch.

19 people killed at a Mexican football match yesterday. Don't watch the videos. All down to fighting.

ShamoBuc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739698#Comment_118739698

Any link for the 19 dead?

I've read 22 badly injured and there were unconfirmed reports of 2 dead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739720#Comment_118739720

Yeah, It's twitter reporting that high number actually. Maybe I need to wait until the full story comes out.

alchemist33

Some local journos reported the deaths, and apparently video of killings is very traumatising to watch, like cartel murders.

DM_7

Mod: a note was already posted to pre-warn posters about how this thread could be allowed after a previous thread was closed. This is a soccer forum within boards. No posts that imply any wrong doing by individuals, even on the basis of reports elsewhere or a persons opinion, will be hosted here. On that basis recent posts were deleted.

~Rebel~

I see Dani Alves has been arrested without bail in Barcelona over a sexual assault/rape allegation. He's been sacked by his club (Pumas, in Mexico) too. Sounds like his defence has already been disproved by video evidence, so could be in big trouble.

https://www.marca.com/en/football/2023/01/22/63cd98e1268e3e1c058b45a8.html