Sally Rooney disappears up her own etc

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117893071#Comment_117893071

 Fr what it's worth, I think she's a terrific writer.

Well that's one priestly oppressor put back in his box...

riclad

Shes the most successful writer in Ireland for years, she must be doing something right . All her books are being made into TV series. Re Sinead ó, conner when she was young the Catholic Church still had some power and influence I doubt very much if Sally Rooney was effected by the church in any negative way since she grew up in a later generation.

Some foreign journalists may still not realise the catholic Church has very little influence in Ireland since 2000 from the reviews I read her latest book is more subtle and well written than her first book

Hotblack Desiato

Some foreign journalists may still not realise the catholic Church has very little influence in Ireland since 2000

Apart from still controlling 90% of primary schools, most secondary schools, and a lot of hospitals. Half of maternity hospitals still don't offer legal abortions. Sex education in most schools is either inadequate, non-existent, or outsourced to insane far-right groups.

N.B. these schools and hospitals are entirely funded by taxpayers, parents and patients, the church contributes nothing financially.

If you're a non-christian in this country you can forget about a primary teaching career (this affects a lot more people than the religious oaths still required for becoming a judge, member of the Council of State, or President!) because most of the 10% of non-catholic schools are controlled by the Church of Ireland.

Just because most people turn their back on the church long before they become adults doesn't mean it still doesn't have an influence on society. In purely economic terms, it controls vast amounts of prime development land in Dublin which is unused, this is driving up the cost of land and therefore housing for everyone.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898814#Comment_117898814

Responsible for the wet weather too

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897888#Comment_117897888

One of the major characters in her new novel is a practicing Catholic (a young man who ‘goes to Mass every Sunday even though his parents don’t’, to paraphrase the text) so that probably provoked some questions about Catholicism.

Mike Murdock

Sally is a very good author, but her grasp and understanding of Marxism is "back of a fag packet" at best.

riclad

To be different in Ireland now one would go to mass for most people a church is a place for weddings or funerals or baptisms

Thehoodedclaw

Normal People is nonsense. If yerman was any good at football, he'd be training for the Sigerson with TCD, and wouldn't have any time for ridin'.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898910#Comment_117898910

Thanks for your mature contribution to the thread.

Danzy

Sally was called out by a Sydney journalist on anti Asian racism.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900673#Comment_117900673

You're welcome

Did you smash it

Has anyone seen her smile? Her choice of course but she carries a strange blank expression in all her publicity photos.

I see sheep

She seems to really trigger conservatives so that's funny, long may it continue.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901557#Comment_117901557

I'd guess that next to no one in the British Government has a clue who she is.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901348#Comment_117901348

Written by some moron who knows nothing whatsoever about Ireland.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901348#Comment_117901348

No, she wasn't.

This narrative emerges from the delicate snowflakes of the right, for whom anyone who ever says anything about race is automatically taken to be accusing everyone else in the world of racism.

You can read Jessie Tu's review here: https://www.smh.com.au/culture/tv-and-radio/surely-there-are-better-literary-heroes-for-our-generation-than-sally-rooney-20210817-p58jfp.html. The argument, essentially, is that Rooney's works are of limited interest or relevance, because of the socially and ethnically limited world that they explore. She accuses the books of being boring or irrelevant, not of being racist. And it's all about the books; she says nothing at all about Rooney as a person, or about Rooney's life or politics.

I don't think it's a very good or fair review, by the way. Tu mentions an episode in which one female character asks to be hit during sex, and says that Rooney is "making that seem cool, or 'grown-up'". I disagree; it came across to me as an indication of how damaged the character concerned was (as a result of her painful personal history which is detailed in the book). Similarly Tu mentions a character whining about Venice being "full of Asians taking pictures of everything" as an illustration of Rooney's disregard for Asians, but in fact the character concerned is cruel, entitled and selfish and this is offered as an illustration of his cruelty, etc. And other characters in the book attack him for this statement, and call it out as racist. Tu mentions none of this.

So, I think Tu was not in great form when she read the book, and didn't like it, and I think didn't judge it entirely fairly. Her central criticism of it - that it has a narrow perspective and so is of limited interest - may be justified, but you could say the same about e.g. Jane Austen's books. And at no point does she accuse Rooney herself of racism.

Marxism is a magic word that causes people to lose their minds. The King of Magic Words (and this was true for Marx too, I would suggest) is of course 'Jew.'

But back to Rooney. A previous poster suggested that a mark of her competence as a writer is that her works have been made into screenplays and tv series and films and lawdie knows what else, figurines probably. This is not a mark of literary competence by any means, since novels and screenplays are different beasts; so much so that some of the best aspects of novels are unfilmable. That her books are readily translated into other media and that this translation signifies success, is more a mark of the influence of TV and film on the place of the novel and the role of the novelist.

Don't let Rooney's performative 'Am I a neo-liberal or am I a Marxist? A puff of wind or a wolf?' politics, put you off 'Marxist' novelists. For Marxism without the misery, The Good Solider Svejk by Jaroslav Hasek is a great place to start. It's a hoot and I'd bet my last banana that Ben Elton read it when prepping for Blackadder 4.

Sunny Disposition

Sinead O'Connor wasn't ostracised. People thought she was a bit cracked for sure, but she was seen as a curiosity really. In fact I'd say there was very high tolerance for her despite a lot of very strange behaviour.

Hotblack Desiato

Nearly all of the backlash against her was in the US. I wonder how those people feel today - maybe they're still deep in denial.

Fritzbox

Sinead O'Connor created quite a few negative waves in the USA long before she ripped a picture of the Pope.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897698#Comment_117897698

That would be like trying to find "scientific or statistical" evidence for the famous Irish sense of humour or French rudeness. But you knew that before you asked right.

I don't know that begrudgery is such an exclusively Irish trait - and there are people who do well here that don't get piled on. I think it's a bit superficial just to view begrudgery as simply dislike due to doing well. But, going by social media comments, there definitely seems to be a tendency to find fault a lot - simply for the sake of it at times - among us Irish (excluding me!) E.g. new jobs announcement - "waaaaaaah!" It doesn't even make sense.

I attempted reading Normal People but couldn't warm to it. There was something about its tone - an overly cynical, bordering on smug one, imo. I think of Bleeding Gums Murphy in The Simpsons saying to Lisa: "You play the blues pretty good for someone with no real problems." Problems are relative, have to be put in context, yes... to an extent though - you need to have perspective. I can see how people don't understand an entire novel being made up of day to day personal issues and self doubts. And the sex obsession starting early on... again, The Simpsons: when Homer briefly became an artist, he hung around with fellow artists, one of whom was just so world-weary and seemed to find everything so tiresome, saying "we are adrift in a sea of decadent luxury and meaningless sex" with such boredom. I don't believe for a moment that schoolkids are that sexually jaded. Many are sexually active yes, but not like a group of French academics in their attitudes to it!

I don't know anything about Sally Rooney, other than a family member knowing her some bit and finding her rather insufferable. Pretentious and self important seemingly.

Cannot stand when privileged people (one of whom I am - I also have anxiety/depression, as have lots of people; other neuroses I have are pretty much shared by everyone - the only differences are how people deal with them) pretend to be oppressed instead of having perspective.

That said, I wouldn't want to be carpet-bombing Sally with dismissal either (and there are people doing that here about her books - which I greatly suspect they have not read!) Also, if people are going to take issue with her because her books are "too white" (oh the humanity) they can **** right off. That bitterness is tiresome. And it's not only white people who can be privileged. The catholic church thing is pretty much irrelevant to her generation (and before it) but it's still something she can have an opinion about, and also tremors of something can still be felt by those not around until later. It did have a huge grip here. I think it's preferable too for privileged people to have some degree of a sense of social justice - at least a recognition that not everyone has it as good as they do. Once they don't become too preachy or lacking self awareness (while enjoying the trappings of middle-class/upper middle-class life). But I'd prefer a degree of it to someone being a snobby little shyte.

John Doe1

Half of the twitter American wokists hate her for only having a few non-white characters. Ye know, with books set in a country that is 94% white....

The level of ignorance within Americans and Wokists is fairly staggering sometimes.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906862#Comment_117906862

Actually, I don’t believe there are any non-white characters in either ‘Conversations’ or ‘Normal People’. The TV adaptation seeded some into the narrative, presumably to tick the diversity box, but they don’t exist in the book.

Whatever your opinion of Sally Rooney and her writing, in this respect she is accurate. Most Irish people in their 30s (like Sally) will live in an overwhelmingly ‘white’ milieu. It might cause some of the nut jobs on Twitter to have a meltdown, but Sally is simply reflecting her reality.

plastic glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117893071#Comment_117893071

This. Also putting her in the same bracket as Louise O Neil is a crime. Sally Rooney’s writing is head and shoulders above that hack’s rambling attention seeking musings.

in terms of influence of the CC-I mean abortion is only legal here a short time. And gay marriage. I think the CC is a big reason

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906891#Comment_117906891

I agree with your first point. Sally is a decent writer, albeit with some shortcomings, like her inability to write believable male characters. It’s way off the mark to compare her to some incoherent journalist. Do I believe she is the authentic voice of the millennial generation? Absolutely not.

The German publication brought up the issue of the Catholic Church in the interview, to which she provided her opinion. I’ll have respect for her if she leaves it at that. However, I’ll quickly tune out if she becomes another one of those tedious CC-bashers, so prevalent on this site, and yet not reflective of the very many Irish people, who are content to be culturally catholic.

plastic glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906897#Comment_117906897

To be fair I didn’t read the article so probably should not have stuck my oar in. But growing up in rural Ireland the CC still played a big role there until recently. I don’t agree with the SOC comment but that is more down to my view of SOC than anything else

I don’t think she is the authentic voice of the millennial generation either but she has definitely struck a chord with a type of person and the fact that she is undoubtedly talented pleases me.

as an aside who do you think is the “authentic voice of the millennial generation”? Kim kardashian, Taylor swift, Eoghan McDermott? Sorry but I would take sally Rooney over them any day if the week. Rooney makes you think. You don’t have to agree with everything

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906904#Comment_117906904

I’m late 30s and also grew up in a small town. I can’t agree that the Catholic Church played a significant role for my generation.

Sorry, what’s the SOC comment? Personally, I don’t feel like there is any authentic voice of a generation. Sally’s writing resonates with a specific cohort. To be fair to her, it’s the hyperbolic reviews that have assigned that mantle to her; it’s not something she has ever claimed herself.

I had to laugh at the thoughts of Eoghan McDermott and Kim Kardashian representing anything. In fact, I’m pretty sure that both of them are pushing or are even over 40, so can they even claim to be millennials!

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898814#Comment_117898814

How prevalent is church control of secondary schools? The rural west I'd Ireland secondary school I went to wasnt religious, and the secondary school near my house in a Dublin commuter town is the same.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900236#Comment_117900236

Isn't it part of the story that he was a somebody in ballygobackwards, but a nobody in the big smoke. There'd be plenty of lads that are the big star in the local team, but the local team is shite. Also, wasnt he turning his back on his small town life?