Michael D Higgins insists he is President of Ireland, refuses to commemorate partition

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922791#Comment_117922791

So MM our most senior politician is attending gig that is a non-political church event.... I think this only confirms that Michael D got this one right...

Pretty well everyone i spoke to on this said Michael D. doing the right thing for our people... i wonder if there was a poll here what be result....

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923065#Comment_117923065

That's got nothing to do with me, or my comments.

If you have an issue with other posters, use the report function and bring it the attention of the mods.

There's quite a few posts from a few posters on both sides of debate which are unsavory.

Which only supports the idea, that at best these events are poorly considered.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923103#Comment_117923103

Micheal Martin has only said that he (or more than likely someone else) will consider possibly going.

“Suffice to say that I certainly respect his (Higgins) position, and I understand where he’s coming from,” he said. “As far as I’m concerned the Government will consider any invitation that comes in. We’ll give that due consideration and make decisions at that time.”

Asked if he would go if invited, Mr Martin replied: “As I said, I’d give it consideration, but we haven’t made any decision in that respect.”

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923328#Comment_117923328

For me the organizers cannot have an elected politician... i think i read that Pres Michael D. above politics was a way round this which i do not really agree with...

Personally i think be better all round to cancel the gig... I expect Queen Liz not too excited about going to mass in Armagh...

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922266#Comment_117922266

Because I am just having a laugh on a thread that become ridiculous nonsense about 25 pages ago

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922383#Comment_117922383

Stop with your my community waffle. Unionism is a political ideology not a community.

I would never go round talking about my labour community

Flinty997

Community is used in many ways.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923455#Comment_117923455

It also speaks to the lingering tribalistic, defensive mindset in the North that things can only be argued in terms of monolithic entities or ideologies. When the reality of the Republic is something much more complex and ethnically, politically diverse.

Higgins made the right call, but this is mountains from molehills stuff. There are certain diplomatic standards expected and Higgins has often shown himself a stickler for procedure (listen to his stump speeches during the elections; it was nearly always deferring to his constitional duties, rather than engaging with topical issues like Travelers et al beloved of Casey).

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923391#Comment_117923391

I'd say Lizzie cares about NI about as much as the average Joe in Venezuela does.

As for Mickey D, he's under no obligation to go to this and with the titling of it, he's right to refuse. The partitioning of the country by its former rulers is nothing to be commemorated by any Irish person. However, even if this was just an auld mass, as some are trying to portray it as, he'd been even less obliged to attend.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117919684#Comment_117919684

Right I see it would make sense as another poster showed me a copy of the letter which clearly stated ‘President of Ireland’ in the address heading which confused me.

So now it seems to be a one issue debate. The word ‘partition’. I have already said how the organisers of the event could simply change the wording from ‘partition’ to foundation or creation of.

As in Republican lexicon ‘partition’ is a dirty word. And many have to concoct various names for the ROI and NI. Basically any other name than they are officially described. I understand the issue and Michael D as a Republican himself has rallied against it. Now Michael D might not have agreed with ‘the struggle’ after 1922 where the state he now serves were attacked by unelected subversives with no mandate . But he is aware of the word ‘partition’.

But is it a form of denial? Because we all know on this site the term ‘partitionist’ is bandied about by chest thumping Republicans as their Ultimate slur.

We have had politicians such as MLA Michelle O’Neill referring to the ROI once ‘as smashing the Free State’. In my view it is a denial of history - hands were shaken papers were signed pushing 100 years ago.

Yet there still seems to be those refusing to accept reality. That is what it comes down to, much like my reluctance to call Landsdowne Road ‘the AVIVA’ or ‘the point’ ‘the three arena’.

This is a similar more serious issue except it is refusal to accept not just a name, but a political reality. It comes down to respecting sensitivities but also an acceptance of reality.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918084#Comment_117918084

I love this question as it reveals a lot about the psychology of the person asking it. The following bit in particular caught my eye "why do you believe". It's not our job to fill in the gaps of your knowledge to come up with the same victimisation narrative you have in your head.

You're from a state where Irish Catholics were discriminated against in terms of housing, employment and even voting rights. The same state was also the destination of nearly thirty thousand Protestants from the republic of Ireland as the census extract below suggests. The same Protestants who were apparently so sick of discrimination that they moved to a state that implemented discrimination on a daily basis.

The 1926 census of Northern Ireland found 24,000 people had come from the south in the previous 15 years.

We hear the same thing in regards to white south Africans who claim discrimination i.e. "can you explain why so many white South Africans left the country after Mandela got into power". Well yes actually, they realised that they were no longer in a privileged position in the state and couldn't handle the fact that they lost that.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923871#Comment_117923871

There are 2 things here. Did people leave for the North because of post independence reprisals or "fear" of reprisals which are very different things. Catholics were actually burned out of NI they didnt just fear it.

Also you must know you were an absolute bsrd in life if your first though is "they might come do to me what I have been doing to them for years"

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923864#Comment_117923864

''We’re now told that the ‘non-political’ church service that President Higgins had the wit, wisdom and political nous to decline, has a programme of events following on which includes a state reception at Hillsborough Castle, and historic buildings illuminated across the UK to celebrate partition and the violent birth of its misbegotten spawn, the north.''

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923962#Comment_117923962

The fact that a large proportion of them moved to a state which actively practiced discrimination leads me to believe that they didn't really object to discrimination. It was more a concern over loss of privilege.

gormdubhgorm

The way I look at it there is a constant attempt to shoe horn a Republican Narrative into either the past or more current view of Irish history when it comes to remembrance.

Which we have seen it in the RIC commemoration plans where the whole history of the RIC and proud Irishmen who served in the RIC from the 1800’s on was ignored, Irishmen Just protecting their community respected members of it such as James Kent father of Eamonn Ceant. Or Gaeilgeoir and RIC man from Mayo - James McDonnell killed at Solohedbeg 1919. Suddenly it was conflated as the ‘black and tans’ commemoration. There was hyperbolic Nazi comparisons to the RIC commemoration plan. Which was a logical fallacy but that was debated in another thread.

Now we the same sort of issue again a refusal to accept reality. Only this time it is not the RIC’s history in Ireland from its foundation in the 1800’s.

But the refusal of many to accept another foundation this time NI itself. Ok you might not agree with it surely it has to be marked? Or should some on this island continue to bury their heads in the sand to protect a political ideology and continue to not recognise it/ pretend it did not happen.

Eoin O’Broin (from his book on public housing) used phrases such as ‘the entity referred to as the ROI’ he calls ‘the south’ must get draining?

Even Sean Lemass changed his government policy and stopped using the phrase ‘the six counties’ on official documents to refer to NI. At some stage surely reality has to be accepted and not just viewed through the prism of a political ideology. And the island as nation(s) should be mature enough to mark events on the island of Ireland and not just pick and chose them based on political ideology? It might happen in the next 100 years at this rate!

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924134#Comment_117924134

It is not the most subjective of publications is it? And phrases such as ‘misbegotten spawn’ hardly scream subjectivity by the author does it? It screams biased ideology to me and a refusal to accept reality.

By using such language the author reveals the nub of the issue ‘intransigence’. A favourite phrase of those involved in NI politics.

And it is not lost on me that the phrase ‘the north’ is used to refer to NI / playing with words - denial.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924205#Comment_117924205

Just concentrate on the part which says there is a programme of events which includes a State Reception (presumably hosted by the Queen) and the illumination of historic buildings across the UK. You trying to pretend that is not political or celebratory?

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923065#Comment_117923065

Wasn't that the Orange Order and their having a shankhill butcher in their ranks among others?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924307#Comment_117924307

It is commemoration of a political event in Irish history. Whether some want to ‘politicise’ it up to them. Whether people want to ‘celebrate’ it is up to them. I for instance was at the 1916 commemoration in Croke Park.

https://www.gaa.ie/news/gaa-announce-1916-commemoration-plans/

Many there used the phrase ‘celebrations’ interchangeably with the phrase ‘commemoration’.

Whether they did was their personal preference and/or political viewpoint. You only have to look at America with its September 11th commemorations it straddles many a line dependent on an individuals viewpoint.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924158#Comment_117924158

The RIC are commemorated yearly and government ministers have attended.

The state commemoration was Flanagan's idea. Nobody asked for it. The people who commemorate the RIC came out to say they never asked for it. As with their cousins the DUP, FG were trying it on for political purposes. Bruton attacking Higgins shows to me that FG still has strong roots in the mentality supporting land owners above the general public. I think people not wanting a state commemoration for the police of their oppressors is reasonable.

People change their description on the north because it is unique.

Martin will really seal his place in history if he goes. Mud guard for FG who kissed the DUP arse.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924405#Comment_117924405

This is as I recall it as well. For whatever reason, Charlie went off on a solo run to commemorate a defunct police force that had a patchy record to be kind to it. It was a bizarre decision and as you suspect (and I also), grounded in a really odd revisionism that runs through certain members of the FG movement.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924405#Comment_117924405

I don't think Micheal Martin had any intention of setting foot in Armagh, but that question caught him on the hop. His "sure we'll have a think about it" is the most non-committal answer he could come up with probably.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924469#Comment_117924469

I hope he doesn't go. Regardless of what he and his government are, they represent us.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924405#Comment_117924405

A very emotive and low on logical rationale, type of post. you have equated Irish parties in the ROI with the DUP (ironically who work with SF in partnership despite all your hyperbole and bluster about arse kissing)

Unfortunately you are the type of poster who is holding Ireland back - and ironically holding a UI back. As such rhetoric and narrow mindset would make even moderate in Unionism backtrack and dig in heels. A hundred years commemoration of NI’s existence is too soon for you.

I would surmise if you lived another 100 years it still would. As you seem to have a strong grasp of the ‘traditional Republican’ narrative but have an inability to look beyond it. Whether that be because of your childhood environment or political background which is a shame. It must be a difficult way to live full of anger and hate.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924138#Comment_117924138

Needed to return to a place where "Paddy and Mick" where still under the boot

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924370#Comment_117924370

I don't think the GAA (or anyone else for that matter) were moaning and groaning about the British Head of State not turning up to join in the commemorations/celebrations in Croke Park or elsewhere.

When Arlene Foster was invited some some other commemorations, Martin McGuinness said that he understood from a unionist perspective that 1916 is not something they would want to commemorate/celebrate and had no issue with that.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923442#Comment_117923442

You absolutely right but some people have an agenda and others are part of a group....

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924494#Comment_117924494

How is kowtowing to a minority backwards party of unionists bringing us forward? As is the idea that we should go and commemorate the RIC/Tans for that matter, as a path towards riding ourselves of british rule is just bizarre. I have no anger or hate. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me angry my friend.

A vast majority didn't want Michael D. to go.

My childhood environment was under FF/FG governments. So I do feel I share some responsibility for how they treated the Irish public, single mothers, gays, jews and ethnic minorities.

I'll thank you not to make it personal. Try keep it civil thanks. Just because you can't argue a political point, that doesn't mean we get personal.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924307#Comment_117924307

Nonsense, the use of the term "misbegotten spawn" rendered the rest of the diatribe null and void, in that it exposed the inability of "republicanism" to truly reconcile, to truly put the past behind it while acknowledging the realities.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924684#Comment_117924684

You may disagree with his opinion, but the facts are there is a State Reception and lighting of historical buildings across the UK and that makes it political and celebratory. I suppose you think we down here should be lighting up the Dail and GPO in celebration of partitition as well along with them!