Michael D Higgins insists he is President of Ireland, refuses to commemorate partition

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926900#Comment_117926900

Who would be upset by that? If there was a United Ireland tomorrow, and in a few years time an equivalent kind of event was arranged marking what would be a very painful moment for Unionists with the dissolution of what they see as their country, would it really be beyond the realms of reason to expect that attendance might be declined by some Unionists? I mean, I don’t really know if I would invite my Protestant next door neighbours to such an event — and even if I did I don’t think I would take any offence to a refusal.

And that’s the very point really, it would not be the “hand of friendship” to begrudge anyone their personal decision to decline something on sincere principle — and as I said before — particularly so where the person making the refusal has already demonstrated a sincere positive position on conciliation. It might even also be an opportunity to say “OK, we respect your view, perhaps here is what we can do to potentially address your concerns about the event”.

My own view on conciliation between North and South (and indeed, within the North itself) is that it sometimes involves concession on one’s principles, but also sometimes involves respecting when certain principles are not conceded. Otherwise, it’s aspirational conciliation rather than realistic conciliation.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927789#Comment_117927789

Nice spin👏 Your post was suggesting there was not large numbers (or even any) Protestants drivin from their homes in ni.

do you think their were significant numbers of protestant’s homes attacked by republicans in ni? Simple question

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927807#Comment_117927807

I am being a little sarcastic to posters who seem to think unionists are equivalent to KKK and republicans are angels

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927789#Comment_117927789

Was their a massive pogrom or burning out of Catholics in NI post independence ?

Maybe my history lessons were bias and wrong but I haven't heard of any.

once you define a massive pogrom then I’ll be better able to answer your question.

An ordinary pogrom is defined as

“: an organized massacre of helpless people specifically  : such a massacre of Jews

so what do you think a massive pogrom is?

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928972#Comment_117928972

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/08/06/news/50th-anniversary-of-burning-of-bombay-street-and-deaths-of-august-1969-to-be-marked-1678500/

Actual factual evidence of Nationalists being burnt out and not just hearsay.

Never heard one actual unionist politician apologise for that one example, then Unionists wonder why we want nothing to do with this centenary, another attempt to glorify the murder, discrimination and burning Nationalist homes. You wonder why people call Unionists "dimwits", look at the parties involved, DUP, UUP, TUV, you'd want to be mental to vote for them, no wonder with the lack of education amongst the Unionist Community. Nationlists got educated, bettered themselves while some Unionists dropped out to spray paint, deal drugs and learn how to march and burn tricolors.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929048#Comment_117929048

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928972#Comment_117928972

Nice dodge. I'll assume my history lessons were right then

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928981#Comment_117928981

I mentioned white south Africans as they're another group that have left their home country when democratic change was implemented. There are many reasons for people leaving their home country, not just being discriminated against.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929110#Comment_117929110

"You wonder why people call Unionists "dimwits", look at the parties involved, DUP, UUP, TUV, you'd want to be mental to vote for them, no wonder with the lack of education amongst the Unionist Community. "

No harm but thats borderline racist and definitely sectarian.

Tony EH

It's "racist" to call voters of a political party "dimwits".

🤣

That's certainly a new one.

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929417#Comment_117929417

Show me the leadership there, all some of them do is march against the protocol and never look for solutions

It's well documented that a sizeable portion of the Unionist Community leave school early making them vulnerable to the UDA/UVF

Look at their spokesperson Bryson, not getting into MENSA anytime soon.

Name one of their Politicians who isn't a bigot, homophobic or has any drive to represent the other side, like apologising for Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy, Bombay Street, etc. Hell they won't even allow the ILA.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929457#Comment_117929457

Again with "they" and "their", at what point did it become acceptable to speak about an entire community as if everyone in it were all the same ?

An example - Bryson is not my spokesperson so saying "their spokesperson" is factually incorrect. Another example - Doug Beattie regularly tweets about equality, LGBT rights and anti-violence. Another example - Robin Swann is a Unionist politician now Minister of Health doing a good job fighting covid without a hint of discrimination. All stuff you don't want to hear because .... you know .... Unionists.

Stop painting everyone in a grouping the same. That path is not only incorrect, it is offensive and also dangerous. You are by no means the first in this thread to do it.

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929619#Comment_117929619

If you're in the Orange Order , which the vast majority of the ocommunity are, you're a bigot in my view, a truly sectarian organisation, I'd bet Beattie is a member. A proper leader would call people out on the bonfires and marching where they are not wanted. Does he even support the ILA, probably with getting rid of the nursery in East Belfast. As you claim to be a Unionist, can you name one Unionist anything worthwhile on cross community issues, if not do you agree with it.

Shoog

I don't quite accept that been in the Orange Order automatically makes you a bigot. The Orange Order is just a variant of Freemasonary and people join it for the same reasons they join the Freemasons - to make business contacts and advantage themselves financially. This may have been the vehicle for Catholic exclusion in business, but thats sort of incidental.

I have a cousin who is in the Orange Order, and I certainly wouldn't describe him as a bigot.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930211#Comment_117930211

I'd say joining a bigoted organisation is a pretty strong indicator of one's bigotry, whether you'd describe your cousin as a bigot or not. You can tell a man by the company he keeps as they say.

I'm sure some fellas joined the EDL for something to do at the weekend and all.

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930211#Comment_117930211

I wonder if people that joined the KKK would say the same, grand fellas

votecounts

https://twitter.com/marlowsean/status/1441040495732355084

on a lighter note.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929998#Comment_117929998

It's nowhere near the vast majority of the community. There are, however, a disproportionate number of Unionist politicians in the Orange Order. Also, the largest religious denomination in the DUP are members of Ian Paisley Senior's 'Free Presbyterian' sect, a sect that makes up a small fraction of 1% of the population of the north.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930348#Comment_117930348

I'm gonna pretend that actually happened. Brilliant stuff

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926900#Comment_117926900

Who is WE... It was a stupid idea of religious groups who after all the in-house scandals decided to do this gig...

Thank God he had the brains and courage to kick it to touch, it looks like the majority of WE here agree with his decision..

Get over it....

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929998#Comment_117929998

let’s just make up nonsense.

the majority of the community is in the OO 😂

doug beattie is in the OO. 🤔. I am not certain but I doubt if you are correct.

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930955#Comment_117930955

It's not just the membership it's the people who march on the 12th and attend bonfires on the 11th putting placards and tricolors on them. All sectarian acts to provoke the nationalist communities especially in areas where they are not wanted.

I've asked this question numerous times, who on the Unionist side has shown any leadership in relation to the protocol, it's there and it's not going anywhere, bad from the DUP considering they negotiated it. Thinking about leaving stormont because they cannot their way, it's not the 1970's anymore.

Who has shown any leadership on cross community things, the ILA, stopping contentious Bonfires or simply removing them. Neither the DUP/UUP had anything to say on this.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931092#Comment_117931092

this is another incredibly naive and indeed offensive and bigoted post. Bigoted, in that you have extended your originally bigoted comment “If you're in the Orange Order , which the vast majority of the ocommunity are, you're a bigot in my view”

now extended to include everyone who attends the 12th. Any of you who have been to the 12th will understand the level of naivety at play here from this poster.

maybe you could have the balls to answer a question likeminded posters have completely refused over my time in this forum. You say parading in areas “they are not wanted”. Could you tell me the criteria for defining “areas they are not wanted”??

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931586#Comment_117931586

Its you who are been naive if you are trying to make out that the intention of the Marches was not to flaunt the Orange orders victory over the Nationalist areas of the North. Its why a substantial number of catholics leave home and come down south for their holidays to avoid the intimidation. Its why the marches commission stopped them marching through many areas because everyone and their dog knows the intention of the marches.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929439#Comment_117929439

I am inclined to agree with the DC about all of us voters when we see some of the decisions by our politicians...

I do agree with Michael D on this one.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929998#Comment_117929998

I don't agree. I know people in the South who are part of the orange order. They travel North every July for the marches. They most certainly are not bigots, neither do they do it in order to antagonize catholics.

If we want to move on from the tit for tat that is usual in the North, the marches thing needs to be got over!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931754#Comment_117931754

If people repeatedly do things that are bigoted and that antagonize others, then those people are both those things. It's nonsense to disassociate the two.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931840#Comment_117931840

But they don't do those things.

pixelburp

I would never argue for speaking in absolutes, but the Orange Order is, at best, a discriminatory organisation that would be up for a court case if it wasn't a potential landmine - both literal and figurative. Maybe there already has been one, am up for correction there and fully admit my knowledge could be better. If male-only golf clubs can find themselves sued, the OO would be a prime target too were it not for certain "cultural sensitivities".

At worst, it's a bigoted and sectarian group that has arguably, quietly facilitated institutional or ad-hoc discrimination against half NI's population. The old curse of "don't ask, don't tell" washes many a hand. It may not be a written part of its Mission Statement to antagonise the Catholic / Nationalist communities, but you'd have to be fairly naive to think of it as an innocent, celebratory organisation for Ulster unionism that got lumped in with the bad eggs.

I can see why its influence is so embedded in local business, some might join purely as a leg up for their own; again, golf clubs are kinda notorious for that sort of thing. Masonic orders too to a lesser extent. But the OO doesn't have clean hands here, and in the eyes of many strikes as a regressive, archaic institution

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931948#Comment_117931948

The march and attending it, are those things.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932032#Comment_117932032

I don't agree. The people I know that attend the marches do it out of some kind of tradition. I don't pretend to know the details of such.

They are neither bigoted not antagonistic. Perhaps people need to just not worry about marches?

Don't allow a match to somehow take over your emotions?