Michael D Higgins insists he is President of Ireland, refuses to commemorate partition

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948152#Comment_117948152

Christ this is tedious. I've been incredibly clear which march I was talking about, Downcow.....you even mention the area in your post. I'm specifically referring to the parade that was rerouted leading to the Twaddell Avenue 'peace camp'. So please share this map of yours.

On a personal anecdotal level, the Lisburn Road parade certainly made it very difficult to get anywhere for residents of the area. I assume the big, 'gotcha' you're going for with your map (if it exists at all) is that they didn't actively walk in and out of every individual housing estate rather than actually demonstrating that the route doesn't block people into their homes.

And not even a second to acknowledge after all your jumping up and down and pre-emptively accusing me of backpeddling that I actually have no issue with an OO march through the town centre in Newry or Derry.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117946708#Comment_117946708

Just had a look at Kilkeel on the Parades Commission website and picked 2018 (no covid restriction) to have a look at what parades there were. In all, there were 33 spread over the year, with two days not LOL bands. The non-LOL bands consisted of 2 and they paraded on St. Patrick's Day and 15th Aug. (which is a RC church feast day). The only band that had any restriction (deemed 'sensitive') was what a presume was a catholic/nationalist band. Restrictions were that they could not play music passing a Presbyterian Church were members of the security forces were interred and passing church of Ireland and methodist churches, they could only play hymns. They got 45 minutes of parading time on the way out in the morning and 30 minutes to get back in the evening. I can see why you think that Kilkeel is a unionist town with all those LOL bands parading up and down all year. Good reading here. https://www.paradescommission.org/searchresults.aspx?pg=6&st=kilkeel

Flinty997

Sometimes you meet people who just won't listen. You have to stand back and let them self destruct before they will see reason.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948411#Comment_117948411

As for Derry and Newry, I already said that would be magnanimous of you. I completely respect that you said that. A very open/minded fair position to take.

as for the map. Certainly I’ll post it. Don’t know if I can from my phone so you might need to wait

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949001#Comment_117949001

A fairly good summary, if a tad inaccurate. I haven’t checked your link yet but it is completely wrong to suggest that non lol parades amounted to two. I would think about 50% were non LOL. Many were other unionist cultural parades which are non LOL and I said I would gues at least 6 parades were nationalist/republican.

so yes. Vast majority are unionist of one form or another, which is not surprising given the makeup of the area and the fact marching bands are very string in unionist culture. I reckon the fleadhs and the GAA games were 100% nationalist in kilkeel area - and that’s fine as they are very strong in nationalist culture.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951406#Comment_117951406

The relentless DC campaign to draw equivalence between a bigoted sectarian blood-and-thunder counter-culture and Gaelic games/sports/music/life continues. How about Republicans/Nationalists demand one-for-one matching of every unionist march? How about for every street named after a Brit/Unionist one gets named for a Republican? How about for every minute spent on unionist TV/Radio programming one gets spent on Nationalist programming?

Can you imagine the collective bed-wetting in the unionist community if Republicans and Nationalists stooped to that level of bitter culture war you lot have been at for centuries?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949001#Comment_117949001

Just had a wee look myself there. If you are correct that there are 33 parades then there are 23 of them non LOL. There are only 10 LOL parades of which 7 were little feeder parades on the 12th July.

as for determinations. I didn’t look at them but I am not surprised that only one parade was determined on. The banana band (as it’s known locally - I can’t spell its name) was an unashamedly IRA band which has become a dissident ira band. Several of its members are convicted of murdering townsfolk. And it plays tunes like ‘one shot paddy’ which is about an ira sniper murdering our security forces. Some of these are buried in the churchyard that they are not allowed to play music while passing. The decent catholic bands are very clear they will not share the road with banana flute - hence the different timings

but fair play the loyalist kilkeel that does not prevent it passing through town centre.

context is everything.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951263#Comment_117951263

You also pre-emptively accused me of back peddling before I had answered your question.

I do look forward to the map, I presumed when you spoke with such confidence that you already had it, but I'll wait.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951406#Comment_117951406

OK - we will put it this way - there were 26 different days of parades in Kilkeel. From what I can see, 2 days (17 March & 15 Aug) were nationalist parades, and 24 were unionist parades (British Legion, Young Orange Lodge, etc).

There has only ever been one Fleadh Cheoil in Northern Ireland, and that was in Derry/Londonderry in 2013. GAA play their sport in a field that they own. They are not using shared space. I suppose the problem with GAA for unionists is that it is mainly played on a Sunday which would be a no-no for presbyterians (free or otherwise).

Shoog

To illustrate the degree of control unionists would like to maintain over everyones life in the north, a Protestant friend of mine told me that he was told to stop playing football on a Sunday morning because it was against the law.

Last time I was up there I was also surprised that no shops were open on a Sunday Morning. Protestant Religion still dictating what people can and cannot do in the North.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951767#Comment_117951767

Tbh I am probably as naive about Irish culture as you are about unionist culture (a shame on us all), but there is definitely events in Castlewellan which locals call fleadhs, which take over for much much longer than any parade and require serious cleaning up by council workers etc. Most unionists just think, that’s fine, let them get on with it and enjoy their day, we can go to the shops another day. No big deal and they seem to be having fun.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951942#Comment_117951942

a catholic friend of mine tells me no one actually went to the moon. That doesn’t, either make it correct or make catholic people strange.

you talk about us like we are a different species. You need to recognise the dangers in this.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951942#Comment_117951942

Last time I watched the news on the Irish state broadcaster I was surprised to see it begin with a catholic call to prayer. This was followed by an item about almost 100% of primary schools are run by the Catholic Church. All sounded Very strange coming from a northern Irish unionist background

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952599#Comment_117952599

Almost all schools in Ireland are owned by churches, but run and paid for by the state. There was discussion a few years ago about compulsory purchase orders being placed on them but the churches wanted extravagant prices and its seemingly unconstitutional to just take them. I want to see all churches hand ownership of schools to the state.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952594#Comment_117952594

Fleadhs means festival in Irish, not what was been talked about which is the rotating national music festival.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952594#Comment_117952594

This nonsense you postulate about 'a benign Unionism which has no issues with Irish cultural expression' is just that...nonsense.

Nobody in Unionism 'stops' parades or fleadhs, and nobody in Nationalism/Republicanism stops Unionist parades or cultural events. The Parades Commission does the 'stopping' and will only do that if the event/parade is contentious and may lead to disorder.

They do this based on opposition to parades and the likelihood of that causing disruption or disorder.

If you look at their considerations on Kilkeel events (freely and transparently available as PDF's on their site) it is clear that there is significant opposition to the cultural expressions of both sides that in their view may lead to disruption and disorder.

Your attempt to pretend that Unionists/Loyalists have 'no issue' with Irish cultural expressions fails as a result.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952680#Comment_117952680

Maybe you can then give us all a few examples of unionists/Loyalists have blocking Irish cultural expressions. I can certainly match you more than one for one on nationalists blocking Unionist cultural expressions.

so the facts are very different that the fiction you post

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952715#Comment_117952715

I told you where you will find it. In the transparent considerations of the Parades Commission, freely available on their websites.

If there is no opposition to a 'parade' then the PC has no work to do, they do not arbitrarily stop parades. They respond to objections or the threat of disruption/unrest.

It is clear if you read their considerations/decisions on the Kilkeel events that there is significant opposition to parades FROM BOTH SIDES (as I already said)

So your depiction of a benign Unionism fails.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952599#Comment_117952599

its interesting what caused that situation.

"...  Under the penal laws only schools for those of the Anglican faith were allowed...."

"... Kildare Place Society, which operated on Protestant principles, as well as to other educational societies which had proselytizing aims...."

When the new national school system was set up it was intended to be secular

"..a system of education from which should be banished even the suspicion of proselytism, and which, admitting children of all religious persuasions, should not interfere with the peculiar tenets of any."

Combined literary and moral instruction was to be given on four or five days of the week. It could not be doctrinal or dogmatic. Separate religious instruction was to be given on the other days of the week or before or after the school day..."

But in reality

Usually, where schools were mixed in the religious allegiance of students, the denominational numbers were very lopsided. In 1862, the first year for which this information is available, 53.6 percent of all national schools were mixed. This statistic hides the reality that normally there was an overwhelming majority of Catholics and only a few Protestants in mixed schools.

In the second half of the nineteenth century the Catholic Church sought to make what was already a de facto denominational education denominational in theory as well

Also interesting to note

inculcation of loyalty to the established order and respect for authority were taught. Irish cultural identity was not on the agenda of the national schools. Irish language, history, heritage, and games did not find a place in the curriculum. The culture of the schools was more British than Irish. The textbooks produced by the national board were so successful that they were the best-selling books to elementary schools in England.

Its interesting how so much oppression. actually caused the pendulum to swing hard in the opposite direction. Though this History is mostly not taught in the UK. So they are largely ignorant of it. That's not just true of Ireland, it true in lots of places that had a shared history with the UK, the repercussions of British involvement reverberate in modern day problems.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952594#Comment_117952594

I did a search and there is an Ulster Fleadh that moves around the province (9 counties!). As explained to you, Fleadh means festival. The Ulster Fleadh was in Castlewellan for 2 years recently and from reading newspaper articles on it, it supposedly brings in £3m into the area and while there are some music/dancing street events, most seems to be in halls and pubs. NI Tourism seems to be heavily involved, with an emphasis on promoting walking, golfing and other activities in the area.

Nothing like the parades of the marching season.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952594#Comment_117952594

As someone who knows Castlewellan very well, could you remind me how many of these “fleadh” events are supplemented by a ritual burning of British flags and cultural emblems? Contrast that to Rathfriland, 10 minutes out the road, where the spirit of ‘Ah let them have their day’ is usually stymied somewhat by tricolours, Catholic effigies, local GAA club jerseys and flags being plopped onto a bonfire and burned. Nothing is done to prevent it.

There is every reason to defend the cultural practices followed by Unionists in the North — the flutes, lambegs, parades etc are part of the cultural fabric of the island and that should be celebrated. But until the propensity towards politicised antagonism and triumphalism from which many adherents to those cultural practices seem unable to extricate themselves, then that culture is always just going to rub people up the wrong way.

You re trying to simplify the matter into one of mathematics — how many times did they have events that block up towns and roads versus how many times we did it. This is not the point, it is the associated injection of antagonism that causes the issue.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953841#Comment_117953841

So we were having a discussion about parades and you now feel you want to include bonfires, just because there may be a crossover of some people.

So if we apply the seem rules to the flaedhs in Castlewellan, then surely it is okay for me to link the attack on an elderly man's house a few weeks ago which no doubt had some crossover people.

I would not do that as I have a little more respect for the right for the fleadh to stand-alone - you should have the same respect for parading

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954480#Comment_117954480

What is the cultural aspect of parading? Is it celebrating a military victory or what? Is it the banners that are carried? Is it the music that is played? Is it the musical instruments that are used?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954578#Comment_117954578

Do you understand the meaning of the word culture? The 12th of July parades meet any definition of a culture.

Speaking of which, if the President was really interested in mending bridges, he would suggest that the Monday nearest the 12th of July be designated as the new bank holiday.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954611#Comment_117954611

Just because it is ''culture'' doesn't mean that it is all good! An example of 'culture' would be say when the wives of Indians were thrown on the funeral pyre when their husbands died or female genital mutilation is a cultural practice in some parts of the world.

All these OO parades are all about displaying unionist/loyalist power.

I think John Bruton, Charlie Flanagan & Leo are more than capable of proposing that as a date for the new bank holiday!

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954728#Comment_117954728

I never said that it was all good, I just said it was part of the culture of unionists. Of course, cultures are open to criticism. There isn't any culture without some negative side.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951942#Comment_117951942

When I was growing up in Portadown, the gates of playing field gates were locked and swings were wrapped around the frame on a Saturday night so kids couldn't use them on a Sunday. That not only happened but was common. It doesn't happen now though. Having said that I suspect if the Free Ps had their way it would become common again.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954773#Comment_117954773

So what is the negative side of unionist parading in Northern Ireland in your opinion?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954773#Comment_117954773

Part of the culture of 'Unionists'?

How so? What has a battle in 1690 got to do with 'Unionism'?

It is part of the Orange culture you mean.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955001#Comment_117955001

Why the inverted commas for Unionists?