Burns Dog Food... alternatives?

R11

We have 6 month old cockalier who was on Gain,which he wasn't mad about. We had a dog trainer who came out to us,was very helpful and gave us great advice. She suggested lowering the protein content of his food so she recommended Burns Free From Range which he devours! It's €15 for 2kg bag in our local equipet which seems expensive.... is there a similar brand of food with lower protein that people can recommend that's better value? I know some cheaper brands have worse ingredients and derivatives which are not healthy.....in the long run they may be worse for the dog. Any advice?

DBB

Aside from him liking it (and many dogs go off Burns over time), I wish people who recommend putting a healthy dog on a lower protein diet would ever do a bit of research, so that they'd realise how utterly inane this advice is. How do they think that putting a carnivore on less protein is going to have any positive effect? Why did your trainer think a reduction in protein is appropriate? I think people have an idea in their heads that high protein causes hyperactivity... it doesn't. That's a very old-fashioned misconception. There's plenty of good info available now on this sort of stuff, so I'm afraid when I hear of anyone still advising to drop the protein, I find it hard to suppress an inner eye-roll!

Zooplus is generally a pretty good website to source good quality dry foods at a reasonable enough price, especially if you go for their bulk deals.

tk123

Honestly if a trainer recommended I lower protein content I’d find a new trainer. Unless your dog is in the end stages of renal failure you don’t need to reduce protein content .. and even at that the jury is out on whether reduction is the best course of action!

I have a 4 month old pup.. if he’s being a bit crazy he either needs a nap, a poo or a chew 🙃 I’d also be peeved at a trainer recommending Burns to me which simply doesn’t suit a lot of dogs - my own included when he was on it 12 years ago. There are other things to feed beside kibble... As DBB says take a look on zooplus - forget protein content and look at what’s available in your price range. If you’re happy with Burns maybe consider buying a larger bag? Or even look at a good wet food eg Rocco to mix in and bulk out the kibble to save money.

laoisman11

I think that it would be helpful for the discussion if people could quantify what they mean by too much protein or not enough protein. I get the impression from one of the previous posters that protein level can't be high enough, while another says "if a trainer recommended I lower protein content I’d find a new trainer" followed shortly by "forget protein content". Quite diverging opinions........

In any case, bone deformations brought about by diets deficient in vitamins and minerals (and exasperated by increasing protein levels) are the main issue here, but they can normally be treated to some extent so as not to become fatal. As your pup is now 6 months old, most of the growth has finished, so protein content is less relevant. If the diet is complete and balanced, he likes it and he is looking in good form, then it sounds like you have the bases covered.

Good luck!

*my post appears to have gone in twice (maybe because I'm on European time?). In any case, it should be the 4th post on this topic.

tk123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907461#Comment_117907461

Ok.. well to clarify my post .. If a trainer is telling clients to lower protein levels they are peddling outdated nonsense advice.. so their training methods are possibly outdated also, and they would not be compatible with myself and my dogs... My advice to forget protein levels is based on my assumption and experience that the OP has been given a magical protein percentage they should stick to or stay below to manage their dog's behaviour. I would assume DBB has come to the same conclusion based on her advice and experience. Instead of getting hung up on this trainer's advice and magic protein %, the OP should look at the ingredients of foods (eg the source of protein) that are in their budget rather than limiting themselves to whatever foods have this %.

I don't feed kibble so I can't offer and advice there.. OP my own pup is eating us out of house and home @ 1.2kgs of food a day 💸 🤣

MAULBROOK

Plenty of options with gain dog food. check out their website. Farmers co-ops have loads different types in stock. The Burns stuff is good but the price is outrageous

piplip87

Don't take dietary advice from a trainer would be my first thought on this. I'd get to the vet and ask their opinion on this.

DBB

@laoisman11, I'm not sure am I reading you correctly when you say there are diverging opinions... if you're saying that my opinion is divergent from tk123's, it's not... we're both saying the same thing!

That is, there is no justification for curtailing protein in a dog's diet, if they're healthy and without underlying health issues. It is advice that I was given starting out on a long career working with dogs, particularly blamed as a cause of hyperactivity, amongst others. I've since come to the understanding that this advice, like a lot of other advice bandied about, is based on supposition, not research. I think people made assumptions about dogs' dietary needs being similar to humans', which they're not. They diverge from us in quite a few ways, including that on the sliding scale of omnivory, they're considerably less omnivorous than we are.... they're way up at the "carnivore" end of the omnivory scale. It's pretty much impossible to give a carnivore too much protein, throughout their lives.

I'd also be a little irky about a trainer telling an owner stuff like that if they haven't first done a lot of research into the topic. When a trainer tells an owner something that's known to be a long way off-kilter against modern and more up to date research, it does make you wonder what other stuff they're advising that's based on made-up wisdoms.

laoisman11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907557#Comment_117907557

I think that you are missing my point........you say that advice to lower protein levels is "outdated nonsense advice". But lower from what? 20%? 40%? 60%? (And I should be more specific and give the values in g/1000 kcal instead of % but for the sake of simplicity let's stick to %)

Based on what the OP has said - their pup is 6 months old. The protein requirements of a post-6 month old cockalier are not the same as a 3 month old. What will they do with all this excess protein that they are taking on?

tk123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907621#Comment_117907621

I'm not missing your point..I was given this same advice years ago with my dog. It didn't matter what the ingredients were in his food at the time, age/weight/breed/sex/health weren't taken into account either - it was just a figure the trainer had. I then spend ages trawling through zooplus to find foods with this golden protein value and discounted everything that was over it - could have been 1 or 2% over but nope this is what I had to feed. I soon threw that advice out the window and ditched the trainer... I did change my dog's diet completely and it had a very positive impact on his behaviour and health which includes complex joint deformities (which were not caused by protein - if anything the protein in his diet is what build and maintains muscle to support his joints and has kept him in good shape for 12 years)

As for 3 months vs 6 months. My own pups food decreased by 200g last week and he's down to 3 meals a day, he has more energy, he sleeps less, he's allowed some more times for walks and doing lots of training etc etc.. he's still only 4 months old so I expect a level of madness because he's a baby which I manage. If he DID have an excess of protein like ourselves he'd pee it out.

laoisman11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907780#Comment_117907780

It sounds like you had a bad experience with that particular advice that was given, it must have been frustrating when all you wanted was the best for your dog.

My view is that the nutritional needs of every dog are slightly different and focusing on any single value as the "golden" value is futile. I'm also taking what the OP has said, the trainer recommended him to decrease protein. Not to aim for any specific value, but to decrease it. From what level, we don't know. But we could hope that it was a diet for puppies and so particularly high in protein. Would it be so bad to reduce intake of excess protein that is going to be pee'd out?

R11

Thanks for replies so far. You guys are way more knowledgeable than I am on this. Seems trainers advice is a bit outdated.

So he's healthy and enjoying the Burns but as one poster said it's pretty expensive. What other well made, healthy food do posters recommend for a 6 month(and onwards) dog?

DBB

What kind of budget have you in mind? And, have you the space to store a bigger bag? 6kg or up to 12ish kg? The bigger the bag, the cheaper it gets 😊 but not everyone has the space to be storing big bags of grub!

R11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909442#Comment_117909442

Our utility room is small but we had a 15kg bag of Gain Puppy when we first got him. Was looking at that UK website last night,allaboutfogfood, looked interesting. Saw somebody mention the Markus Muhle stuff on another site,its good nutritional content and got good reviews. Zooplus have 2x15kg bags for €80 currently which seems good value....but not sure if the contents would make him a bit more hyper. He's mostly fine around us,gets a few zoomies etc but is very hyper around new people,other dogs...jumping up,spinning around etc. But that's probably his nature.

DBB

It's almost certainly due to his age, which comes with a lack of self control! That's something you can work on over time, it's something all puppy owners just gotta do! Hopefully your trainer has taught you to channel his behaviour in the direction you'd like it to go, using nice, positive, reward-based methods.

I would be beyond surprised if it's anything to do with his food. If it is, it's categorically nothing to do with the protein in it. If anything is going to cause behavioural issues, it'll be high carbs, or an ingredient(s) that your dog happens to become allergic to. The most common allergens are grains, chicken and beef. However, it's fairly unlikely that a 6 month old fog has had the time to become allergic to things.

I have never tried Markus Muhle (well... my dogs haven't 😁), but I know quite a few posters here over the years have spoken very highly indeed of it, and great value for the price. Dogs seem to like the taste of it too. I'd think it's well worth a punt for you 😊

mobby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910067#Comment_117910067

I feed my 4-year-old Cavalier Markus Muhle and he loves it and doing very well. You can get Mini Pellets for smaller dogs. I get it from Zooplus.ie

R11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921974#Comment_117921974

Yes,I saw the mini version...are they the exact same ingredients? I thought I read the Markus muhle is only suitable from 12 months onwards,my fella is only 6 months old....is he too young to try him on it?

mobby

Mini pellets ingredients are the same as large ones. It does say only suitable from 12 months. May I suggest you try Timmys pet shop in Dungarvan they mostly do raw food but very good with the food advise. My lad never took to raw food at all but Timmy advised the markus even though they don't supply it themselves. Might be worth a phone call.

tk123

Timmy actually has a loyalty program for Burns where you get the 6th bag free - saw it on FB the other day. Just incase you want to stick with it.

R11

Thanks. Looks like I can't start him on the Markus until he's 12 month's...any other recommendations on zooplus?

R11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924012#Comment_117924012

Yes,I have that already with equipet. On 4th bag now(only 2kg bags) but was hoping to switch to something better value in a few weeks

tk123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924536#Comment_117924536

There’s a puppy MM

anewme

I might be able to help here as have done a bit of research (5 month small breed puppy).

Started on again Elite puppy, he was ok on it, but I wanted something better, Currently on Acana Puppy, doing well, but it is expensive (50 for 6kg).

have looked on Zooplus and cross checked against all about dog food, which seems a good site to cross check.

There is a Markus Muhle Puppy, it’s the Black Angus Range, it’s not rated that high on all about dog food and it is 50 for 15kg on zooplus I think.

considering Lukullus, there is a Lukullus junior 10kg for 38 on zooplus with 2 of them for 75. It has a good rating, while not as good as Acana, it seems good. They also do a tin range, considering getting them as a back up and good to add as a “topper”. Not sure if anyone’s used Lukullus.

R11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936635#Comment_117936635

The Markus Muhle black Angus adult gets a good review and rating on allaboutdogfood(so I'm presuming the Junior version is pretty much the same,only smaller pieces)

https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-reviews/0876/markus-muehle-black-angus-adult

I'm going to try it as a reviewer said it's got some more nutrients than the Lukullus.

anewme

Markus Muhle gets 83 percent and Lukullus gets 88 percent.

i was looking for anything over 85 percent.

its all subjective, but taking everything into account I think Lukullus might work for me so I think I’ll order the smallest bag and see how it goes.

im also considering staying on Acana as I’ve a small dog, but it is more expensive but that could also be mitigated by portion sizes.

beachhead

Where is Burns sold-never heard of it

R11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939958#Comment_117939958

Equipet

R11

So I'm looking to switch to Markus muhle Junior or Lukullus junior. Both are cold pressed,look good value and nutritious.....is one better than the other? Anyone use both? Any preference?