Michael Higgins Praises Travellers Contribution to Irish Society

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929211#Comment_117929211

There was of course an option to not recognise their ethnic minority status. The UN only put forward a recommendation of such, not any type of direct regulation/directive/order to do so. Enda Kenny could have turned around and said "Thanks for that UN, but we will take it under advisement." and done nothing.

Now the media would have been all over him like a rash for doing that, but here was an option not to recognise them as an ethnic minority.

ec18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928993#Comment_117928993

A.

IAmTheReign

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928659#Comment_117928659

The negative behaviours of travellers are also observed within the wider society? You can't honestly expect anyone to take that seriously days after someone got airlifted to hospital from a cemetery when a brawl broke out at a funeral?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929468#Comment_117929468

Negative behaviour which anyone chooses to associate with any group on the basis of their own beliefs about members of that group. You’re right, I don’t expect anyone who recognises themselves in that description to take it seriously.

I also don’t expect anyone to take the portrayal of violence among travellers as being unique to travellers as if the same sort of violence doesn’t exist among people who aren’t travellers. Think about the level of knife crimes as a whole, and then try and tell anyone it’s a behaviour is unique to travellers, or is more common among travellers.

As I suggested earlier, it’s because they were travellers is the reason it’s being reported in the media, just like the way it wouldn’t have been reported in the media that three young lads shoved a girl off the platform under a train, and another young lad went to kick one of the girls in the face, and had it not been caught on CCTV and released in public, the public would have been none the wiser about the abhorrent actions of a few pricks.

By virtue of their numbers, far more people who aren’t travellers are represented among statistics in relation to antisocial behaviour and all sorts of violence, but that reality isn’t recognised by people who wouldn’t look in a mirror for fear they wouldn’t be able to stomach their own reflection.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929196#Comment_117929196

I'll say one thing about the American comparison.

While I agree that it's pretty stupid to try and compare the plight of african americans to that of our travelling community, as their respective histories are really nothing alike.

Where there is some similarity, is in how advocacy groups and politicians are attempting to tackle the problems. In the US, you've had clueless politicians (usually rich white politicians) trying to defend and make excuses for people in poor black communities for generations, without really bringing any solutions to the issues. So their excuses just merely keep the expectations permanently low and prevent the cycle from being broken. They think they're doing the right thing by sticking up for poor black people, but they're really just making it worse. It's actually the community leaders in these poor neighborhoods who make the real difference, by doing the opposite - they don't make excuses, they don't except poor standards and they hold people accountable for their bad behavior. That's the only way you raise the bar and break the cycle.

And I see the very same mistakes being made by people here towards the travelling community. Making excuses and defending their bad behavior. They think they're doing the right thing by standing up for them and defending them, but in reality they're doing the opposite. They're keeping the bar of expectations permanently low, never expecting or demanding any higher standards or looking for accountability for bad behavior. So the cycle never gets broken.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928636#Comment_117928636

First it was my fault for having a view that Traveler culture is toxic to women, then it is Pavee Point's fault for sharing my view, and then, finally it is also the fault of the small number of Traveller women brave enough to speak out about it.

Traveller culture is deeply misogynistic, that is a sad reality. If toxic masculinity was rooted out of the traveller community, the world would be a better place.

Offended by everything, Ashamed of nothing.

BobHopeless

When travellers change their ways people's view of them will change, until then it is what it is.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929702#Comment_117929702

No, it’s entirely your responsibility that in your opinion traveller culture is toxic to women, a view that is shared by Pavee Point and a small select group of travellers.

It’s again your opinion that traveller culture is deeply misogynistic, and that if toxic masculinity was rooted out of traveller culture the world would be a better place. I have no doubt that the world would be a better place from your perspective, but I wouldn’t assume that travellers feel the same way as you do about their own culture.

Have you considered how the vast majority of travellers feel about their own culture? Have you approached many traveller women to tell them they are complicit in a toxic culture of their own making?

I remember how that went on here with a traveller girl who did an AMA - she was encouraged by posters here to do an AMA because they thought she shared their beliefs, it wasn’t long before they discovered how wrong they were when she used the platform she was given to defend her own culture, and the same people who were originally championing her, abandoned her just as quickly as they had been to champion her as a beacon of their own beliefs.

Maybe you’re not familiar with the two sisters on tiktok who are all for busting all sorts of myths some people have about travellers? They’re very open to questions and educating people about travellers culture -

https://youtu.be/I_ARer3YSEo

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929360#Comment_117929360

Haha, UN recommendation, best boys and girls in the class virtue signalling.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929829#Comment_117929829

I think I will stick with my view that the normalisation of violence against women, the denial of reproductive rights, the arranged marriages and the non-education of women need to be rooted out of Traveller culture. You may think me prejudiced, but I can live with that.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929854#Comment_117929854

I don’t just think you’re prejudiced, you are prejudiced, and like you said you can live with that. I’m absolutely certain that travellers can live with their own culture too and see no benefit nor reason for them to abandon their culture in order to appease your prejudiced beliefs about them on the basis of their membership of the traveller community.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929877#Comment_117929877

I am not asking travellers to abandon their culture, I am asking them to stop normalising violence against women, to promote education among women, to all women access to reproductive rights and to stop arranged and young marriages.

I would ask the same of all cultures, so that doesn't make me prejudiced. I think that FGM among African cultures is deeply misogynistic and wrong. Ditto much of Muslim attitudes to women.

hawley

Michael's comments are like a dog whistle for Travellers. They feel like no matter what they do, they will be defended by politicians and charity organizations. They feel like they're protected from criticism by the political elite and media. His win in the last election was a massive moment. He's enabling their behavior, such as what we saw yesterday.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929894#Comment_117929894

A minute ago you weren’t asking anything of travellers and you were perfectly fine with your own prejudices, as was I to be honest, but now you’re asking things of travellers as though they’re actually things unique to traveller culture, but you also acknowledge that the things you speak of aren’t actually unique to traveller culture, so you’re not prejudiced.

Well, that’s true, you’re not prejudiced if you’re holding everyone to the same standards, which Irish law already does. Whatever unique demands you make of other groups in society on the basis of your own beliefs about those groups is based upon your own prejudices though, not reality.

You’re basically doing nothing more than placing yourself in a position of authority by which everyone else is judged by your subjective standards, because you’re unwilling to accept reality that objective standards exist in Irish law already that apply to everyone in society regardless of their sex, ethnicity, membership of the traveller community is specifically stated in equality legislation so there’s no need nor reason for you to be trying to impose your own standards and prejudices on people who don’t share your beliefs or your perspective of their own culture, and no need for anyone to take any notice of whatever you’re asking for of them.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929360#Comment_117929360

no, there was no option, the government was never going to refuse to recognize the facts on this to placate the bashers.

of course the media would have reported that the government refused to recognise reality had they been stupid enough to go down that route, what would one expect?

it's over, you lost, get over it.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929749#Comment_117929749

they won't do well, as the "speaking out" will just be the usual bigoted nonsense with no actual sollutions to the actual issues, unless they involve more discrimination of course.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929798#Comment_117929798

sure it will alright, the usual victim blaming to justify the unjustifiable.

here is the deal, people such as you who make such a statement don't really care about "their ways" as such, you just use them as an excuse for your behaviour to them as a whole.

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929798#Comment_117929798

Genuine question; how do you expect them to change their ways given the attitudes towards them shown in this thread, yes they seem to shun settled society but settled society has also shunned them. People don't want to live next to them, people don't want to employ them, people don't want to befriend them. It's a vicious circle.

Yurt2

As per my post on page 1, a lot of people just hate travellers in their bones, and they that's ok to air it however they please - they think that this has no effect on travellers' status and how they interact with the settled community. You'd be surprised how polite many travellers actually are once you treat them with a bit of respect, they are an honour culture - treat them like humans and you'll be treated in kind for the most part. They do have their back-up with settled people because many travellers think that the vast majority of settled people instinctually hate their guts, and on the reading of this thread, they'd not be too far wrong. Sad really.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929920#Comment_117929920

he isn't enabling anything, there are perfectly good processes in place to deal with members of any community who step out of line, it's called the law of the land, and all that is needed is enough staff to actually enforce it.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930019#Comment_117930019

Bingo. Much of the problems with travellers stems from a toxic attitude a hell of a lot of people have towards them.

Off-topic a bit but one of my favourite Irish athletes over the past few decades is Andy Lee. Gypsy to his core and a really great guy. All time boxing coach great Emmanuel Stewart took him under his wing and Lee repaid all his faith in him and even was there at his hospital bed when he was dying of cancer. A great role model for traveller and non-traveller kids alike.

TheRiverman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930029#Comment_117930029

They don't treat themselves like humans. If they did they might go to their own family weddings and funerals without knives, machetes, slash hooks, hammers, baseball bats, sledges, guns etc.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930008#Comment_117930008

People such as yourself, don't really care about "them" or "their ways" either. (or the societal consequences of "their ways")

People like yourself, really just care about being seen to stand for something that makes you look virtuous. You just want to be seen to be on the correct team, so you get a nice pat on the back.

Anyone who really claimed to care about the plight of the travelling community or any other group in society, would help to empower them. Not pander to the worst elements within their ranks, or make excuses for their bad behavior. Or indeed patronize them - which is what most of you guys are actually doing. (including our president btw)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929953#Comment_117929953

You really don't have a clue. Try telling a beat-up Traveller woman that the law protects her from her husband when she knows that her family will shun her if she does anything about being beaten up.

I cannot for the life of me understand why you continually defend the right of any culture to treat women the way that Traveller culture does.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926730#Comment_117926730

It would have been funny if he did.

99% of Travellers ruin it for the decent 1%.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930051#Comment_117930051

I live in a place where 10 years ago nobody knew that the people calling to their door to clean gutters and tarmac driveways were in fact travellers. They didn’t know it when they were fleeced of their pensions without a tap of work done, they just knew that they’d been fleeced. Was it their prejudice that fleeced these elderly and vulnerable people??

Andy Lee is truly a credit to his family, but he’s said it himself he isn’t a fan of the lifestyle.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930070#Comment_117930070

I’m not so up my own arse that because I don’t share your perspective I’ll tell you that you don’t have a clue, but I have done as you suggested already, and besides that I managed to ensure her children were enrolled in school and that she was able to get decent accommodation for herself and her family so they wouldn’t have to be holed up in one of them shìtholes euphemistically called women’s shelters. As for her husband, well I may have neglected to mention it to him that the law will protect him too from an unmerciful hiding.

It’s because my experience doesn’t correlate neatly with your idealistic nonsense that you see anyone who doesn’t agree with your perspective as defending anyone from being discriminated against on the basis of your prejudices. Your prejudices are YOUR responsibility, they’re not anyone else’s responsibility.

You can attribute whatever you want to “traveller culture”, but making out that violence against women is unique to traveller culture as though the phenomenon doesn’t exist outside of traveller culture is enough to have me suggest you may want to start a lot closer to home if your intent is to address violence against other people or negative attitudes towards other people in Irish society, before you imagine yourself in a position to judge anyone else.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929360#Comment_117929360

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929360#Comment_117929360

Enda was in coalition with Labour at the time and Labour really pushed for it ,never mind the media, academia and NGO sector

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930029#Comment_117930029

Travelers can smell weakness, treat them politely and they feast on you