Michael Higgins Praises Travellers Contribution to Irish Society

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932064#Comment_117932064

Culture: - The ideas, customs, and social behavior of a particular people or society.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932738#Comment_117932738

According to this article AMC acquired the rights for it alright, I’m not sure they had any involvement in production -

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2021/0222/1198591-kin/

Per capita makes no sense in the context you’re using it as it’s impossible to calculate or represent the cost of criminality to Irish society in that way, but the poster appeared to be concerned about how the Government spends it’s revenue and the cost to the State of funding crime prevention, policing, courts and prisons, and their complaint was the high cost of criminal behaviour perpetrated by travellers. It doesn’t even come close to the cost of criminal behaviour perpetrated by people who aren’t travellers.

The point being that far more is spent on preventing and prosecuting criminal behaviour of people who aren’t travellers, than those people who are travellers.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932639#Comment_117932639

I am not "choosing" to associate their lifestyle with higher levels of crime.

It is.

There is more criminality among travellers than among non-travellers.

If travellers are 1% of the population, more than 1% of crimes are committed by them, and more than 1% of prisoners are travellers.

What I want to know is: why do some people (not the majority) then defend them?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932839#Comment_117932839

I know what culture is, you appear to know what it is too, so how does travellers lifestyle associate with high criminality in a way that the lifestyle of people who aren’t travellers doesn’t? If you’re holding everyone to the same standard, then the same association with high criminality could easily be made with people who aren’t travellers. I personally wouldn’t make it in any case, because that would be silly, and it would be guilt by association, and still nothing to do with culture.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932844#Comment_117932844

Per capita does work, it'll just blow your nonsense out of the water. Thats the reason you don't want to use it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932860#Comment_117932860

You ARE choosing to associate their lifestyle with higher levels of crime. That’s why I pointed out that there are far higher levels of criminal behaviour among people who aren’t travellers, and the cost to the State is far higher too, like the guy who tried to avoid paying the proper taxes on imported goods that tried to get away with defrauding the State to the tune of millions of euro, and the Judge in the case singing his praises -

Describing Mr Begley, with an address at Woodlock, Redgap, Rathcoole, as a “success story” and an “asset” to the country, Judge Nolan said: “It gives me no joy at all to jail a decent man.”

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-jailed-for-six-years-over-16m-garlic-tax-scam-26830346.html

I shouldn’t need to explain to you that there’s a world of a difference between questioning people’s opinions about travellers, and defending criminals. I couldn’t care less whether a person who commits a criminal offence is a traveller or not. That’s holding everyone to the same standard.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932929#Comment_117932929

Per capita, they are HUGELY over represented in crime and prison populations. That's not a "choice", that's a stone cold fact.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932897#Comment_117932897

It doesn’t work, “per capita” means “per person” in financial terms, and you’re trying to apply it to the number of crimes, not the cost of criminal behaviour. By virtue of their numbers alone, more people who aren’t travellers commit crimes vs travellers who commit crimes, and still that says nothing about the cost to the State of criminal behaviour perpetrated either by travellers or people who aren’t travellers.

Even if you were to suggest looking at the numbers in prison, it’s true that as a proportion of their population demographic, there are more travellers in prison at least than there are people who aren’t travellers, and that again is just looking at numbers and doesn’t give an accurate picture of anything such as the type of crime, the length of their incarceration, whether they are incarcerated at all and don’t end up with “99 convictions but a custodial sentence ain’t one of ‘em” sort of nonsense for antisocial behaviour, or whether they’re attempting to defraud the State to the tune of millions by what is considered “white collar crime”, as if that means it’s any less harmful to society.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932727#Comment_117932727

Talk around a pain point, don't address it. Your strategy is clear.

BobHopeless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932142#Comment_117932142

A few years back when my daughter worked extra Xmas hours in a major Irish toy store they made a commitment to hire two travellers as some sort of inclusion programme. One of them hid in the stock warehouse which was located in the basement and stayed there until after closing in an attempt to rob the place but hadn't the intelligence to realise the shop had indoor sensors and cameras and was arrested. He claimed he fell asleep 🤣 The other traveller didn't bother turning up for work the next day so it was presumed that they might have been in on it and even though charges where dropped the shop was plagued by travellers shoplifting for the next few weeks i guess as a sort of f you.

So yes i guess they worked and paid taxes for those two days.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933014#Comment_117933014

It’s called putting things in context. If you’re going to make a complaint about one group in society by way of making the point that everyone should be held to the same standard, then it’s only reasonable to compare the two groups in order to determine whether they are being held to the same standard or not and whether both groups are being treated as equals. The law provides an objective standard at least which is far more objective than individuals subjective opinions.

It is bare faced deflection. If a tiny element of a broader society are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime and anti-social behaviour then if is fair to say "something" is wrong with their chosen lifestyle.

Am I interacting here with the Troll in residence on the Boards platform?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931471#Comment_117931471

he didn't tell the truth, he told you what you and others wanted to hear, which isn't actually true, he threw in a few stereotype claims and tried to tar the whole lot with the same brush also.

the majority of irish people overwhelmingly rejected him and his snake oil nonsense.

it's not up to mdh to point out anything, its up to the government to insure any issues where they are a breach of law have the enforcement available to deal with those issues and that those issues are enforced, however travelers are not and never have been exempt from the law.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933007#Comment_117933007

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita

Please acknowledge that per capita applies to more social sciences than Economics.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931480#Comment_117931480

you very much do have an idea why they were given ethnic status, you are just on such a rager over it that you can't except the reality.

no amount of legislation will force someone to integrate with society if they do not wish to, especially where parts of that society are hostile and not for turning regardless of what they claim, to those you want to force to integrate with us.

traveler culture isn't going to be wiped out, you will just need to get over it.

Geuze

The Dutch are taller than average.

The Celts have a higher rate of suffering from haemochromatosis.

Travellers commit more crime than non-travellers.

These statements describe how some groups have higher than average attributes than the larger populations.

I don't understand how you say that:

"You ARE choosing to associate their lifestyle with higher levels of crime."

If two things are associated / correlated, it's not me creating or causing the association.

Travellers choose to commit more crime than settled people, and when I state this fact, you seem to suggest that I am making it up?

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932860#Comment_117932860

There's a massive difference between defending the travelling community and clearing it of all blame. They are people and people have rights. It's all well and good holding them to the same standards as everyone else but surely you then have to treat them the same way as everyone else or how do you expect them to reach those standards.

There was a story a few months ago about the conditions of a halting site in Cork, it was disgusting, rubbish not being collected, sewage leaks. The council is responsible for the halting site but instead of outrage there was a slew of jokes and comments such as "I wonder who left the rubbish there". There's a saying, if you treat people like animals, they'll behave like animals.

What people don't seem to grasp is that there are two ways forward for Irish society; the first is we carry on as we are with travellers on the fringes, shunned by society which judging by the comments above is the least preferred option. The other option is that the travelling community slowly integrates into settled society, this is going to take work and as someone mentioned above it also has to come from within the travelling community, they have a lot of introspection to do but settled society also has to do some work on itself because at the moment a main obstacle (not necessarily the main obstacle) to that integration is the hate and discrimination that travellers face. Why would travellers want to integrate into a society that so clearly despises them?

For anyone who wants insights into positives of traveller culture I would recommend following Rosemarie Maughan or Martin Beanz Warde on Twitter, there were actually some music and comedy events during traveller pride week. Travellers are people and it might also some here to actually see them as such.

I remember that discussion. They chose to bring additional children in to those squalid circumstances. Others would not have children that they could not provide for.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931575#Comment_117931575

this is just in your imagination and not based in reality, you want what you claim to be the case so badly because you think you have some sort of argument against what me and others have said, which you don't.

you see i have been on this site quite a number of years, almost 10 actually, and i have been involved in enough of these threads to get a perfectly fair idea of who has simply just had a bad experience or experiences, and who is in actual fact just a bigot.

quite frankly, what one writes can tell a story without having the experience of being involved in discussions.

so i am afraid you have no trump card here like you seem to think you have.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933068#Comment_117933068

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933078#Comment_117933078

It’s not a bare faced deflection of any sort, it’s dealing directly with the issue of the cost to the State of criminal behaviour in Irish society, and the poster was concerned about it because they were concerned about how “their taxes” are being spent by Government.

You can of course choose to zero in and manipulate statistics as much as you wish to present the kind of picture you wish to present, wholly inaccurate, misleading and all as it is, but even you acknowledge that a comparison must be made in order to determine whether a point has any legitimacy by comparing which elements of society engage in criminal behaviour and what is the cost to the State as a consequence of their behaviour.

As for your point about “per capita”, of course I acknowledge that it’s use depends upon context, and in the context in which @Fandymo was using it, it made no sense when we were discussing the cost of criminal behaviour to the State.

Per capita in that context would give an inaccurate value as there are far less travellers in society than people who aren’t travellers, so spreading the cost of criminal behaviour between the two groups would not only be impossible, but any figures you’d invent would invariably mean that the cost spread among a greater number of people means it costs less per capita than the cost spread among a lesser number of people.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931702#Comment_117931702

this is a nice little long winded rant but really it contains absolutely nothing of substence what so ever.

yes the alt right can and does exist, not in anything in comparison to america or the UK but they are there and they are visible.

the left spending other people's money on people in genuine need is much preferrible to the right spending other people's money on their cronies and party donors, by miles, give me the left any day.

enda kenny took away nothing, the individuals who tarred travelers with the same brush did exactly what you claim they apparently started doing because travelers got recognised as the ethnic minority that they are, long before that recognition was even an idea.

travelers are not exempt from anything, you know this but try and make out otherwise so you can go on a rager over something that you would like to be the case but isn't.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933104#Comment_117933104

Yes, great, you suggest an option that they integrate.

I agree.

That means full attendance at schools, and committing less crime.

But do they want to integrate?

I don't hate travellers, I am scared of them.

I try to avoid them, out of fear, not out of hate.

I am scared that if I tip my car into them, they will claim against me (happened to a friend) (and yes, they do make injury claims at higher rates than non-travellers).

I am scared that if I look at them, they may become aggressive.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933116#Comment_117933116

in reality,

where most posters live the list of people who have had positive experiences with travellers is a lot shorter than you would like people to believe

People who have have negative experiences and or been the victim of traveller criminals, sharing them here is first hand evidence that runs contrary to the idealized agenda that you have been pushing for 10 years 🙄

which infact trumps any card youd like to play ie something that actually happened rather than something that you would like to have happened 🤷‍♂️

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932520#Comment_117932520

and i imagine you seem to think that is some sort of trump card and a good argument, it isn't.

the reality is, traveler or not, parents these days won't let their children into a strange neighbourhood, encampment or all else, they would want to get to know the other children and their parents first.

well, that's how any of the parents i know work, and how my parents worked.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933169#Comment_117933169

I’m sure you meant to say committing NO crime? 😁

They’re already integrated within Irish society, so the question becomes whether or not they want to mix with people who aren’t travellers, or whether people who aren’t travellers want to mix with them. The vast majority of people in either group don’t want to mix with the other, so the sort of integration but only on your terms just isn’t going to happen. There might be the odd one of either group who might mix and associate with people from other groups, but I don’t think either group have to, or will give up anything unless it suits them.

While you fear them and that’s entirely your own business, at least you’re not going so far as some people on this thread who wish to see travellers treated unfairly while suggesting that they be held to a standard that doesn’t appear to apply to anyone else who isn’t a traveller.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933171#Comment_117933171

That would also suggest that the list of people who have had negative experiences with travellers is also shorter than you would wish anyone to believe, ie - something that people are claiming happened that never happened, they heard it off someone else or it happened to someone else, etc.

In reality in that ten years you speak of, travellers have been recognised as an ethnic minority in their own right and granted equal status in Irish law, which REALLY trumps any card you would like to play in terms of things that happened vs things that haven’t happened, but people need to claim it has in order to portray themselves as being the REAL victims.

NIMAN

Are we still waiting on a list of all the good they have done for society?

Or have I missed it in the thread?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933356#Comment_117933356

Michael D who was always interested in arts and culture was likely referring to their contribution to arts and culture in Irish society as opposed to anything tangible, in much the same way as any groups contribution to Irish society can’t be measured in terms of tangibles or lists of their contribution to Irish society.

It’s unrealistic to expect anyone to come up with an actual list of things that any group has contributed to Irish society. In any case what one person might regard as a positive contribution to Irish society, another person might see no value in it whatsoever or may disregard it as a legitimate contribution to Irish society because it isn’t something they place any value on.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933511#Comment_117933511

Do you have a list of their contributions to arts and culture in Irish society?

Music, works of art, all have a tangible contribution. Can you show us that traveller culture has contributed its fair share to Irish society or greater than its fair share?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933146#Comment_117933146

You are mistaken.

Your arguments against per capita are nonsense and betray a lack of understanding of the maths involved. If you spread the cost of traveller criminal behaviour per capita among the traveller community and compare it to the cost of settled community behaviour per capita among the settled community, you get a figure that is comparable and directly relevant.