Michael Higgins Praises Travellers Contribution to Irish Society

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933171#Comment_117933171

Im still waiting to see some positive experiences mentioned in this thread

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933569#Comment_117933569

Nope, I don’t.

I also don’t agree with you that either music or works of art have any tangible contribution in society, though you’re free to place whatever value you wish on them. They are the mediums of ideas which are of no tangible value in and of themselves, only what value is placed upon the medium, by whomever is interested in those ideas and mediums.

I can’t show you anyones fair share of anything, precisely because they are the contributions of individuals, and not a whole group. I’ve no doubt you’ve contributed plenty to the arts and music and so on, though I’ve no idea what you consider is a fair share in any case. I’ve no doubt some people have contributed more than others. Rosaleen McDonagh as she’s been mentioned in the thread already has contributed plenty to Irish society, far more than her fair share, certainly more than I have, and I’m not sure about you, but she’s right up your alley what with you being such a champion of traveller women and all -

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/rosaleen-mcdonagh-this-is-the-best-moment-of-my-life-1.4644605

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933586#Comment_117933586

Well you get two figures really, which can be compared, but you won’t get an accurate picture of the cost of criminal behaviour among either group to Irish society in terms of crime prevention, policing, courts and prisons, which is the context in which the comparison arose. Offences per capita among the two groups which is what @Fandymo was looking for, still wouldn’t give you an accurate representation of anything.

jmreire

330'000 people would diasgree with you here.... Had the electioneering gone on for longer, or he had started canvassing sooner, he would have gotten even more votes I'd say. Had there been a referendum ( pity we are not like Switzerland, where 100'000 petitioner's can get referendum called ) how would that have worked out, I wonder??? The motion being are Travellers a different ethnic group or not???

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933720#Comment_117933720

Yes, so now you admit it is possible to get comparable figures, but you then try to downplay them. Of course, they don't tell the full story, but they tell enough of the story to learn something.

In the same way, the shocking census statistics tell a story about the treatment of women within the traveller community, something which you continue to defend as part of their culture.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933772#Comment_117933772

I wasn’t suggesting it wasn’t possible to get comparable figures, I was making the point that it would be impossible to calculate the way @Fandymo was trying to calculate it, which is why “per capita” in the context of the number of offences committed by individuals within either group made no sense in that context. I don’t hold people responsible for the crimes of others, neither does Irish law, so what use would there be in having an imaginary figure which has been derived from statistics?

In the same way, statistics which are shocking to you are of no consequence to me, because it tells me feckall only that you’re choosing to portray a narrative which supports your beliefs about travellers, something which you continue to associate with travellers as part of their culture in spite of me making the point that domestic violence is not an indigenous part of their culture, and further demonstrates evidence that you’re choosing to ignore the parts of the report that you linked to, which shows that women are quite capable of defending themselves against men, but you’ll no doubt attribute that to “toxic masculinity” within the traveller community.

I’m not defending anyone who is violent btw, I’m just not willing to concede to your point that violent behaviour is indigenous to the traveller community as part of their culture.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933738#Comment_117933738

A more appropriate motion would be "Should they be officially recognised as a distinct ethnic group?". They fulfill the criteria, whether you like them or not.

With regard to Peter Casey, had the electioneering gone on for longer, he'd've been found out as a one-trick-pony. Most normal people agree that Michael D. Higgins has been a great president. Boards is increasingly abnormal. Bunch of bigots circling the drain at this stage, sadly.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933104#Comment_117933104

Did you ever care to find out why rubbish was not being collected? Or indeed where the rubbish was coming from? Why couldn't the men on the site, since most of them are unemployed, dispose of the rubbish that they brought into it?

One can point to endless examples of brand new housing, halting sites, provided entirely by the state to the highest standard, built and opened in pristine condition degenerating into cesspits within a short time - houses gutted and burned down.

I have full sympathy for decent travellers trying to escape this toxic culture. Problem is that anyone trying to do so gets pulled down by their own kin, rather than kicked off the ladder by anyone else.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933205#Comment_117933205

You only deride it as a poor argument because you have no answer for it. For all the talk of positive contribution and inclusion they wouldn't send their children in there for the same reason the Google Street view car doesn't go in. Fear.

Or maybe Google is racist too?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933876#Comment_117933876

What is distinct about their ethnicity compared to me or you?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933876#Comment_117933876

Yes, that may have been better wording, but either way, it ,would have given the people an input. As for Michael D being a good ( or bad ) President, time will tell when his presidency is over, and history will have a say, and "Most" is not everyone. TBH, personally he seems to be doing OK ( aside from declaring that it would definitely be for only one term and then deciding go for a 2nd term, smacks as sharp practice to me) As for Casey being a one trick pony or not, his stance on Travellers hit a chord, with at least 330'000 voters, are you dismissing their opinion? Are they a "Bunch of bigots Circling the Drain"?? These kind of denigrating remarks don't put your post in a good light., and indeed point to a certain amount of Bigotry on yourself...

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933994#Comment_117933994

Google the word "Ethnicity".

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934025#Comment_117934025

I know what ethnicity means. If you can't answer the question just say so. Pointless just firing back with inane comments.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934082#Comment_117934082

If you know what ethnicity means, then you're capable of answering your own inane question.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934100#Comment_117934100

Fair enough. More swerve. I'll take it that you can't point anything out.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933917#Comment_117933917

i deride it as a beyond poor argument because it is exactly that, a frankly crap argument that hasn't got any sort of validity.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934104#Comment_117934104

Sorry, I just have no patience for people being willfully thick. I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's not deliberate though...

"A community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent."

There you go, there's your definition. If you need help with any of the big words, give me a shout.

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933169#Comment_117933169

Schools are not always welcoming to travellers (and again I'm not blaming any particular side), they can be segegrated and treated as lesser, they receive hate and discrimination from other children (who pick such sentiments up from their parents). Again I'm not saying all travellers are victims but below is some examples of treatment travellers have experienced on school, I would hope it's not like that today.

https://twitter.com/William68142828/status/1427261544031821830?s=19

https://twitter.com/Sprocketburp/status/1425788386225360897?s=19

Committing less crime is obviously a big one for a lot of people here and again I would point that they are shunned by society and no doubt that has helped push the community further into criminality, and again I'm not trying to blame the settled community but crime is a source of income when no one will hire you, and yes so is the welfare but it is also something to do. As has been said there is so much unemployment amongst travellers and they don't have the access to the same facilities etc, crime is an outlet and it's something to do, that's not in any way to say it's right, of course it's not and I don't know how you combat that, certainly education from an early age.

Again I'm not defending all aspects of traveller life and they have to role to play but I am conscious that their prospects as individuals and as a community are grim. The suicide rates amongst travellers speak for themselves and the attitudes they face from the settled community don't help matters, you can see that from of the posts that have now been deleted, disgusting stuff. You would think they made up a lot more than 1% of the population.

Anyway I'm not sure I have a point, I'm just sort of rambling because there isn't an easy, clear cut solution, nor is there an easy, clear cut root to the problem.

French Toast

Education is being made increasingly accessible and there have never been more supports in place.

It will be interesting to see if this leads to more Travellers going the distance in secondary and 3rd level.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934124#Comment_117934124

Do you think Google is racist for refusing to Street view traveller encampment areas like Dunsink? Why do you think they stopped halfway down the lane?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934294#Comment_117934294

google didn't go to a lot of places, so really your question has no validity.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934394#Comment_117934394

That's the best you've got. The Google driver decided halfway down Dunsink lane that s/he wasn't going further, and you have no inkling at all as to why that may be the case.

As I said, until we start being honest about why these prejudices exist, we will never get anywhere near resolving them. In fact, the current forced policy is probably making things worse tbh.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932870#Comment_117932870

When you say "holding everyone to the same standard" I assume what you are referring to (since you mention criminality), is more simply called the law.

However if you are asking generally about culture. (not referring to travelers here, but culture in broad terms) as it applies around the world.

Does culture (especially sub cultures) have an association with criminality. Its obvious from lots of cultures around the world that it does.

However, culture is not just about ethnicity. Other ‘cultures’, such as masculinity and a criminal subculture, also shape violent crime through providing people with particular norms to behave according to and particular ways of understanding social interaction (e.g., Staub, 1988; Westen, 1985).

"...https://psychology.org.au/what-can-culture-add-understanding-criminal-violence..."

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934506#Comment_117934506

Well that’s certainly one interpretation of “culture”, which to be frank I consider has no legitimacy whatsoever. There isn’t any such nonsense as a criminal subculture any more than the notion that “rape culture” exists, as though rapists share a common identity and values and beliefs and traditions and so on. Culture in and of itself has no association with criminality other than the association people make which suits their beliefs about other people.

Ekerot

Is this **** thread still going on?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934526#Comment_117934526

Well your wrong. The research and studies from around the clearly show there can be.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934431#Comment_117934431

certainly not the best i have got, but the best i am going to do for a friday night where i have much much better things to do with my time then entertain nonsensical questions.

the current policies are slowly but surely making things better by insuring discrimination against travelers is not without challenge, and making things more difficult as time goes on for those who engage in discriminatory behaviour, for which we already know why it and the prejudices exist.

it is me who is trying to be honest as to why prejudices exist, it is those who engage in them who are refusing to be honest as to why they exist.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934674#Comment_117934674

I’m not wrong. All you’re doing is proving the point with your claim that research and studies from around the (world, I’m guessing?) clearly show that there CAN be. Yes there can, when research and studies are MAKING the association!

If I were to take the idea seriously, then that would suggest we have a criminal culture in Ireland which consists of… well, criminals I guess, and their identity as travellers or not is a secondary influence, not a primary influence, seeing as there isn’t any distinction in law made on the basis that a person who commits an offence is a member of the traveller community or not.

We’re all aware of what happens when the media which perpetuates that association, is the same media which breaks the association by not reporting that the people who were engaging in antisocial behaviour are members of the traveller community -

“Why won’t the leftist media tell the truuuuuuuth?”

Essentially - “why won’t the media support my prejudices?”

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932142#Comment_117932142

Worked in a factory with a few of them from the same family years ago, there was no issue with the employer giving them a job and in fairness they were all good workers.

Problem was after a certain period of time they all went back on the dole and nearly 20 years later they are all married with kids and are still on it.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934727#Comment_117934727

You seem obsessed with the media. The main people posting anti traveler content on social media is travellers themselves.

Besides I wasn't talking about travellers, or Ireland or media at all. These are Anthropology studies in the main. Not social media. They've probably never even heard of travellers.

You asked for an association and I have gave you one thats entirely unconnected to Ireland. These are simply characteristics of cultures. Unless you think you can have culture with out having any of characteristics that define a culture. Which makes no sense.