If the Social Democrats were in Sinn Fein's place

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949213#Comment_117949213

No, FG saw what FF were and partnered with them after getting in on pretending to be different.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951202#Comment_117951202

i am sure you are aware but that’s not what happened, you have to remember the SF PR machine is a bunch of porkie pies

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951195#Comment_117951195

i doubt anyone is too concerned if you think Coveney is “damaged good”. The part about women in the army, yet on another thread you seem to have a different opinion about a women in the PIRA which claimed to be an army. So which is it?

I think if you knew the policies of any of the parties in government you will see they have changed over time to try and fix issues as they occur.

Can the same be said of a particular government of DUP and SF in teh North who constantly repeat the same errors year in year out and fail the people of Northern Ireland at every opportunity.

Just look at the SF led DCC in Ireland, an absolute disaster which was part of the reason for the housing problem turning into a crisis yet what do we see from SF? Do they try to fix the problems they made, no chance they continue to reject housing at every chance …..not a excellent record so you think?

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951241#Comment_117951241

Contrary to your beliefs, SF aren't behind every FF/FG critical comment.

You don't believe FF supported FG in the last government and are in coalition with them now? FG saw how bad FF were got in on pretending to be different and then decided to team up with them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951271#Comment_117951271

Ah, see, we give our opinions here. How strong an effect you think your comments might have on swaying public opinion is for you to amuse yourself with.

You are struggling hard here for some reason. No need to make up lies. You are succeeding at making no sense without the lies. What opinion do I have about a woman in the PIRA and how does it reflect on my comments regarding the treatment of women in the armed services?

No. There was a report published with recommendations on how to tackle the issues. They did nothing. Now they are repeating the process setting up another review where the minister picks the review board with no consultation with the victims. Sound familiar? It should it's what they do to kick things down the road.

Not a Northern Ireland thread. No interest.

Jaysus, desperate gymnastics. Is this referencing were you tried the blame SF for the FF led DCC where a FG minister messed up the poolbeg deal? You were handed your marching orders on that already.

It reads to me like you've no opinion one way or the other on my comment, just jumping in to have a go at me.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951202#Comment_117951202

Presumably you think they should have ignored the option of going back into government for some reason? Stand nobly aside while...who took over? They were still comfortably the largest party during the confidence and supply agreement. And by the time they partnered with FF in a coalition, it was nearly a decade past FF destroying the country. Folks think SF should be allowed into government a couple of decades after supporting murder and not even recognising the state. Is that better or worse than incompetence and corruption?

Listen, SF will be in government soon. That's healthy - I'd rather not have FG in power for too long as that breeds laziness and corruption - c.f. Fianna Fail. But when SF are in power, and we have continued idiocy, foul-ups, and we still have a litany of problems with housing and healthcare, you might get a better understanding that these things are not this way because politicians want them this way. They are complex problems. And you will find yourself defending SF over a series of health/financial/corruption/incompetence scandals, and you know what: you won't remember this post at all.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951462#Comment_117951462

I’m not replaying the entire conversation but you seem to suggest FG just joined up with FF in response to the poster, this is not true as FG and Labour won that election after the crash. The following election the option was only for a FF/FG government if you can remember, or another election. Similar to the one in 2020 with “the winner” SF playing peak a boo with every party 🤣

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951513#Comment_117951513

Factually, FG got in on not being FF, then partnered with them. My point is we could do with no FF/FG for even a while just to upset the crony set ups both parties engage in.

Seriously, you just listed the very definition of FF/FG/Greens:

 But when SF FF/FG/Green are in power, and we have continued idiocy, foul-ups, and we still have a litany of problems with housing and healthcare, you might get a better understanding that these things are not this way because politicians want them this way.

Do you not follow politics?

We aren't guaranteed more of the same or a continuation unless we stick with FF/FG. A change might do us good.

I'll certainly not blindly defend any government making a balls or engaging in cronyism. Not everyone is a die hard party supporter, or in your case, blind to the realities of things as they are.

When we know for a fact FF/FG are either incapable or unwilling to tackle housing or health lets give others a go at trying something else.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951515#Comment_117951515

Look I'm getting paranoid now. You seem intent on playing the man not the ball and lying to achieve it. G'wan "other thread, made up stuff, sinn fein, conspiracy something something...".

I'll leave you to it.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951579#Comment_117951579

Excuse me how am I playing the man. You made the comment about FF and FG partnered which was rubbish as I confirmed above. That is called discussing the post.

Who posted this?

Do you not follow politics?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951202#Comment_117951202

After the last election, Fine Gael lost seats and were going into opposition as the third biggest party. However, they realised after a while that there weren't enough grown-up parties and TDs to form a government without them. They could have walked away and refused to form a government (as Labour did), or they could have made it impossible for anyone to go into government with them (as Sinn Fein did), but they did the bigger thing and formed a government.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954619#Comment_117954619

Sure. That reads like a child's bedtime story.

My comment is pure fact. As to why? We'd differ. I do love the way FG getting in on slagging off FF and then partnering with them is Sinn Fein's fault. The bigger thing would have been for FG to form a government without the party destroyed the economy. We have since learned that FG are no different than FF. Which will be interesting to see play out in coming elections.

Back on topic, I do wonder how FF/FG would manage deflection with no SF, but SD in opposition? Start trolling them online and looking up old tweets?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954641#Comment_117954641

The truth there is that if the SDs and SF swapped positions and Dail strength, we would have a FF/SD/Green government.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951554#Comment_117951554

I'm not blind to how things are. I listed a bunch of issues that currently exist. I also stated that I prefer governments not to be in place too long. You even paraphrased my reasons why.

I'm not arguing against a change of government. I'm suggesting that we will see the same, or at least similar issues under the next government if it is led by SF. They will not fix housing, they will not fix the health service. These are difficult problems and our current system of government is not well suited to fixing them (for example, the health service is run for the benefit of employees of the health service, not for patients - any honest insider will tell you that).

What will be interesting will be seeing how folks who attack the government over these issues today will pivot into defending the next SF government as the same issues continue. I look forward to it eagerly.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954641#Comment_117954641

I'm sorry but that is arrant nonsense. They are no different? One party took a booming economy and destroyed it. The other one took a destroyed economy and rebuilt it. One party was caught again and again with senior members taking brown envelopes stuffed with cash from developers. How many times have FG TDs been caught up in bribery scandals since they got into government?

Having said that, there have been issues (Swing gate, anyone?). There are ropey characters in most if not all parties. And I think if FG were in government for 20 years, the tendency for the wrong people to join for personal advancement would increase and increase, and they would head down the road to perdition like FF. As stated above, this is why it's healthy to boot people out of power every now and again and give someone else a go.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954768#Comment_117954768

I don't see how SF or others would be the same when they would change the failed FF/FG policies that created the housing crisis. They may not fare well but I believe they would move us in the right direction. We need somebody to,

As regards health it's another issue FF/FG traditionally kick down the road. Somebody needs to try something.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954790#Comment_117954790

For two governments now we've had a defacto partnership between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. We have seen FF allow FG ministers get away with lying and cronyism. We have seen them support the same failed policies. I hope people deciding which of the two is the least worst in the polling booth is over or at least not as common.

What did FG rebuild? They took out a loan and continued business as usual. It's the lack of accountability, incompetence, using the private market and cronyism has us where we always seem to be. Drifting from one crisis to another. FG rebuilt things exactly as they were. Kenny had ample opportunity to address quangos, cronyism and the HSE and chose not to. He got in on a promise he would. The economy doing well is of absolutely no use if it's not used to address problems. We cannot continue to try buy our way out of the housing crisis. We are taxing people who can't afford houses to supply them with privately leased houses. It's complete madness.

I think switching from FF to FG is as unhealthy as having one of them in. I believe FG simply haven't previously been in long enough to be there when the wheels came off.

I see no difference between FF and FG. FG are more condescending I suppose.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954619#Comment_117954619

This is mostly correct, however in relation to Sinn Fein it was never realistic that they could form a government.

If I remember correctly FF and FG said they wouldn't go into government with SF both before and after the election and it could be said both of those made it impossible for SF to go into government with them especially as SF would be going in as equals and given their 1st preference vote they would have had a good claim for the 1st go as Taoiseach.

After the election based on the numbers alone the only realistic government was 2 out of the 3 big parties along with possibly the greens or another group to get the numbers over the line or another minority government.

The notion that SF could have gotten virtually everyone except FF and FG to support a government is ludicrous. No party could have done it and if they did the government would collapse within weeks.

FG were left with 2 choices at that point. Form a government or face annihilation in a second election they would have caused (along with FF). FG were never going to go into government with SF either and after 10 years in power SF were never going in with FG.

Much of the charades that went on after the election (including FG pretending they wanted to be the opposition) was because FF and FG weren't grown up enough to come out straight away and acknowledge that they either formed a coalition or there'd be another election. They preferred to pretend there was another option. They avoided it after the 2016 election just about and still weren't grown up enough 4 years later to get on with it.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954919#Comment_117954919

Can you outline the cases of FG TDs lining their pockets with borwn envelopes? Because I can detail lots of FF TDs who were caught doing exactly that. No difference lol.

Like I said, I look forward to you being consistent and condemning SF, Soc Dems etc with equal vigour when they get in and fail in the same, or perhaps in interesting and new, ways.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954935#Comment_117954935

Sinn Fein never even tried to form a government. While there were soundbites in the media, there was no serious attempt to form a government. Even the PBP called them out on it.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955070#Comment_117955070

Do you think such attempts would have been successful. Which of the other 2 parties (FF & FG) do you think were open for talks. Anything else couldn't be considered serious attempts to form a government, I include anything else by any party as post election charades.

As an aside I generally ignore most of what PBP say anyway but they probably don't understand the dail arithmetic, they seem to believe in a magic money tree or communist utopia more than SF.

Anyone sensible looking at the numbers after the last election saw the most likely outcome was the current government or another election. The only other options (apart from who got the numbers over the line) involved SF replacing either FF or FG and I'd say there were high betting odds on those options.

There was no realistic option for any of the 3 parties without 1 of the other big 3. If you seriously considered that a possibility then you must share a maths teacher with Richard Boyd Barrett.

More worrying would be if FF and FG believed it as their running the country and bringing in a budget next month.

The next election will be interesting, I don't expect a virtual 3 way tie but I expect it will once again take 2 from 3 to make a government.

One of those 3 will be the largest party (I don't know who yet, could be any of them) and one will be the junior partner.

Either way it will force all 3 to grow up and talk to each other though none will want to be the junior partner. The largest party will have to talk to the other 2 as I think it will finish up with the largest party maybe early to mid 40s and the other 2 early to mid 30s as 1 party gains a couple of seats and the others lose a couple. This will make the big party negotiate with the other 2 as either will likely be sufficient with whatever 3rd group might be required. The need to be seen to make an effort to avoid causing a general election will force the 2 smaller parties to engage.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955289#Comment_117955289

The key for Sinn Fein (if they really wanted to be in government) after the last election was to quickly put together a group with the SDs, Greens, PBP and similar-minded independents. Had they done so, and the opportunity was there in the weeks up to FG deciding to get onboard with serious discussions, and put together a Programme for Government, then they could have sought a confidence and supply agreement with one of FG and FF, and blamed them if an election resulted from the failure. The failure of Sinn Fein was in not cutting off the route to Government for FF and FG. They could have done so.

It is my opinion that they chose not to do so, because they really didn't want to be in government, and instead wanted to blame others for being left out. It is all they know - blame everyone else. If they ever do get into government, they will inevitably be a bad government, but they may get away with it because they will blame the EU, the elite, the Brits, the banks, developers, the rich, their coalition partners or FF/FG for their own failures.

Meanwhile the country will sink further.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955319#Comment_117955319

You think that kind of coalition could have been put together quickly? I don't think it could have been put together at all. I would argue if it was possible FF would have done it and looked for FG to return the favour from the previous government. If anything there and are probably more like minded indepedents for FF and they could potentially not have needed the greens.

FG if they really wanted to be in opposition would have declined the opportunity to join with FF but offered to support an FF green government from the opposition benches. However I think there was a problem that the greens wouldn't join until the other 2 reached an agreement.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955464#Comment_117955464

The Greens would have been happy with a SF government, and were open to speaking to all parties. However, they were not going to lead the discussions. Sinn Fein were too slow off the mark, that might be down to incompetence or ignorance of how politics work, my own opinion is that it was down to not wanting to go into government.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955047#Comment_117955047

Never claimed FG TD's were taking bribes. They are liars who engage in cronyism. There are reports of the FG councillors claiming expenses for two all day events at two different parts of the country on the same day. We are waiting on the results of the Siteserv investigation and I believe Noonan's involvement with Cerberus is still being investigated outside of this state. Getting into the grubby details of FF/FG doesn't change the fact that they supported and pushed the same policies for two governments, after FG telling us FF were the absolute worst.

I hope the opportunity presents itself.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959085#Comment_117959085

Everybody should be held accountable for corruption and cronyism, I agree 100%. On an unrelated note, I see that Aengus O'Snodaigh is still a prominent SF TD.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960099#Comment_117960099

Agreed.

Roisin Shortall raised the AG still practising representing directors from INM. Not illegal but certainly open to conflict of interest.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960099#Comment_117960099

I see Leo Varadkar is stil a prominent FG TD.

Galwayguy35

I think the SDs have gone as far as they can at this stage, they might win or lose a seat or two but the reality is outside the more well off urban areas nobody is going to vote for them and they are fighting for the same voters as the Greens and Labour.

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960946#Comment_117960946

So is Michael Lowry.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960946#Comment_117960946

Varadkar has not been involved in lining his pockets, or the pockets of his buddies. If he was, I would be absolutely in favour of him being imprisoned. Side note: why are corrupt politicians generally not prosecuted and jailed?