Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

mumo3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118499108#Comment_118499108

Many moons ago my daughters now in college, and the principal is now a state principal, but I remember being sh1t scared of her myself, but the kids loved her 😂

I am actually a member of a school BOM and when you've filtered down through the catchment, siblings and the other points, if it comes down to one place two people those who are there first get the place.

BettyBlue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118491639#Comment_118491639

Oh, I don't doubt it, but the reputation it had as a school led to the vast majority of children in the area being sent to Doon, Tipperary Town, Newport or Limerick. Perpetuating the nonsense that religious is best, despite the best secondary schools I know of within reasonable distance from where I live being a Community College and what was formerly known as "The Tech" in my local town too. That's a whole other issue - I'm not certain on the background there but I would hazard a guess it comes from the result of Donogh O'Malley's free secondary education and the snobbery between the families who would have sent their kids to boarding schools which went on to become the religious schools, and community schools for kids who would only have been able to attend the religious schools prior to that on a scholarship. Just an assumption, so I'm open to correction on that.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118499144#Comment_118499144

Members of BOM should be keeping up with changes in legislation. From the link shared above.

You cannot use date of application as an admission criteria and you're exposing the school to legal action if do.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118498960#Comment_118498960

For me, a good school is one that doesn't indoctrinate children in a particular belief system. That's not an unreasonable position to hold, or an unusual one by any means.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501036#Comment_118501036

They do not indoctrinate them. There is choice. Any parent can remove there children from religious instruction. It's your choice just like it's you choice to send your children to a religious ethos school.

At all stages it's your choice. It back to joining the army and wearing the boots.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501036#Comment_118501036

for me a good school is well run and gives kids a good education and self confidence, far more important than fretting about fables about men in the sky.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501036#Comment_118501036

It’s not an unreasonable position to hold, nor is it unusual, it’s just as idealistic as any other belief though, because for the providers of any education, their intention is the indoctrination and promotion of their own beliefs. The national curriculum is a separate curriculum on top of their own educational philosophy.

The DE doesn’t concern itself with whether or not a school is religious, the criteria is that the school must have an ethos, ie -

the distinguishing character, sentiment, moral nature, or guiding beliefs of a person, group, or institution

@BettyBlue22 alluded to it earlier but while you’re perfectly entitled to your own criteria for how you determine whether a school is a good school or not, you can’t ignore the fact that other people too have their own criteria for determining a school which will provide the best education for their children.

There is undoubtedly an element of snobbery in the Irish education system among people, but it isn’t just based solely upon religion, it’s based upon numerous factors such as social class, stereotypes, and socioeconomic circumstances. It’s a well-recognised phenomenon that people don’t want children mixing with children from other social groups, for whatever their reasons are. Combine these factors together and you get a result like this -

Laurel Hill Coláiste FCJ (Irish: Coláiste Cnoc na Labhras), formerly known as Laurel Hill Convent, is an all-girls secondary school in Limerick, Ireland where all subjects are taught in Irish (gaelcholáiste).The school has around 400 students and has been ranked the top secondary school in Ireland for six years in a row.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hill_Col%C3%A1iste

There aren’t too many future CEOs smoking out the back of the bicycle shed in that school 😂

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501118#Comment_118501118

Give me a child till he is seven years old,' said St Ignatius Loyola, ' and I will show you the man.

They know exactly what they are doing and it is literally indoctrination. 'Removing from religious instruction' usually means they sit through it at the back of the class anyway. And you don't get to remove children from the religious ethos that is deeply embedded into school activities and culture.

There is no choice for many parents in Ireland.

It's more like mandatory conscription to the army and the boots.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501120#Comment_118501120

So you'll have no difficulty in supporting cutting the fables about the man in the sky then? They're not worth fretting about, right?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501473#Comment_118501473

if it happens fine, why would i support or oppose something i am ambivalent about.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501473#Comment_118501473

Give me a child till he is seven years old,' said St Ignatius Loyola, ' and I will show you the man.

He got that from Aristotle though.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501713#Comment_118501713

The Jesuits were a bit more successful than old Ari at putting it into practice though, ensuring that our entire country was church-controlled for centuries, and our education system remains church controlled for now.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118502517#Comment_118502517

The Jesuits are around for less than 500 years. They are one of the youngest religious male orders. Just like you missunderstanding of your quotation you are lacking in understanding of church history.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118503367#Comment_118503367

That doesn’t contradict with anything that I said.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118502517#Comment_118502517

Andrew you have some very strange ideas if you don’t mind me saying so. The Department of Education was established by the Ministers and Secretaries Act of 1924, and has controlled the education system in Ireland since that time -

The Department of Education which shall comprise the administration and business generally of public services in connection with Education, including primary, secondary and university education, vocational and technical training, endowed schools, reformatories, and industrial schools, and all powers, duties and functions connected with the same, and shall include in particular the business, powers, duties and functions of the branches and officers of the public services specified in the Fourth Part of the  Schedule  to this Act, and of which Department the head shall be, and shall be styled, an t-Aire Oideachais or (in English) the Minister for Education.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1924/act/16/section/1/enacted/en/html

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118503449#Comment_118503449

Me and my strange ideas indeed

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/298604/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118503610#Comment_118503610

Well that’s Ruari’s strange idea (and boy did he have some clangers), but that article is referring to control of Catholic schools, as opposed to control of Education. I hope you’ll forgive my Jesuitical interpretation, but the distinction is kinda important 🤔

One of Ruari’s stranger, and more memorable ideas (apart from being remembered for cutting newly qualified teachers pay at the time) has to be this one -

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/ruairi-quinns-comments-about-feminisation-of-education-go-down-like-lead-balloon-30208110.html

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118503756#Comment_118503756

Yeah, it's definitely just me and Ruairi and our strange ideas

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40274339.html

https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2016/05/etb-vec-schools/

When 90% of schools are church schools, control of church schools IS control of education effectively.

Bhail

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/we-re-thriving-how-one-catholic-primary-school-changed-its-patronage-1.4778423

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501713#Comment_118501713

Back then though, much of that was about being true to your class and not rising above your station.

Many "deprived" kids were "shown" to the religious clergy and wrote off as dirt and treated accordingly.

One eyed Jack

Colm O’ Connor complaining, again 😒

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40793868.html

DURING this Catholic Schools’ Week, I’ll be reflecting on the fact that, for the past five years, my daughter has not been able to walk to our publicly funded village school with her friends but instead has to be driven to an equality-based primary school in a nearby town. This disruptive and unnecessary commute has not been the free expression of our ‘parental choice’. We did not want to move her or her brother, but we had no choice if we wanted to protect them from daily religious indoctrination.

That’s exactly what it’s been! Sheesh 🙄

There are some other points he makes in the article, but to state that he writes in a personal capacity, while mentioning that he’s the Principal of Cork Educate Together Secondary School is frankly, just taking the proverbial.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543667#Comment_118543667

Who needs protection from indoctrination when your father is a preacher ...

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543772#Comment_118543772

Oof! Bit mean, but damn it’s quare accurate all the same 😂

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543667#Comment_118543667

What's the problem with him confirming that he's writing in a personal capacity and not representing his school or ET?

Awful to see the sneering at a parent who wants to avoid indoctrination. Would you prefer him to keep his head down and toddle along in line to the communion and the nativity play like the 'good parents' do?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545354#Comment_118545354

The problem with I have with the footer is that it changes the entire context of the opinion piece.

It’s not all that different to your perception that I was sneering at a parent who wants to avoid indoctrination, or more accurately - his assertion that they wanted to avoid the daily religious indoctrination of their children.

It was actually an expression of disbelief at the idea that he claimed “this disruptive and unnecessary commute” he refers to, “has not been the free expression of our ‘parental choice’.”

It’s misleading to characterise the outcomes of their decisions for the education of their children as anything other than the free expression of their parental choice.

Hotblack Desiato

It's deeply ironic that the same posters who say that "it's not indoctrination", "it's all about peace and love", "it's harmless", "your right to opt out is respected" are the first in line to abuse and ridicule people who call for change which is long overdue.

Hotblack Desiato

FFS it's not hard to understand. He'd much rather send his child to the local school (as he previously did). But he knows from experience that his child will not be equally respected in that school. That's not a free expression of parental choice, it's a choice made under duress.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545461#Comment_118545461

If they had parental choice, they'd have sent their kids to the local school. Their additional commute is a manifestation of the absence of choice.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545914#Comment_118545914

They chose not to send their children to the local school, because it did not provide an education for their children consistent with their values. The additional commute is simply the manifestation of the choices they made for their childrens education. I have no doubt it’s not the only inconvenience for them, but he is complaining as though they were forced to make the decision not to send their children to the local school.

I completely get where he’s coming from, that there should be a local school which is consistent with their values for the education of their children, but the education of their children is primarily the responsibility of their parents.

Hotblack Desiato

It's really, really not too much to ask that all schools treat all pupils equally and with equal respect.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545994#Comment_118545994

That's like saying that the bank teller CHOSE to hand over the money to the man standing in front of them pointing a gun. There is no choice involved in avoiding indoctrination in Ireland.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546058#Comment_118546058

That’s not the issue HD, the issue is that the adults involved have no wish to treat each other’s values equally and with equal respect.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546526#Comment_118546526

No Andrew it’s nothing like that. The bank is the school, the teller is the staff, the irate customer making demands is the parent.

The irate customers issue is really with the regulator, not the teller. The teller and the other customers are not the issue, nor is the bank which does not provide the services the irate customer is demanding.

Bass Reeves

Nationwide is on at the moment. Great to see all the children making St Bridget Crosses. Great to see the tradition being maintained.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546627#Comment_118546627

Irate customers don't generally carry guns..

While the Department has indeed the main responsibility, there is a huge amount the schools could do today to drop the indoctrination of students of other religions and no religion, with very minor effort.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545601#Comment_118545601

Abuse and ridicule ? Hyperbole much ?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545914#Comment_118545914

He has an option and he chose what suited his belief system, then he complains it's a little further away than a school he doesn't want.

That's just entitlement.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546627#Comment_118546627

That’s not the issue HD, the issue is that the adults involved have no wish to treat each other’s values equally and with equal respect.

It absolutely is the issue. It may be difficult to see from where you're standing, high on the hog of controlling 90% of primary schools in your favoured and discriminatory "ethos". Maybe try to look at things from someone else's perspective for a change.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535819#Comment_118535819

The previous issues in this school had nothing to do with patronage.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547446#Comment_118547446

Entitlement? From the people who use State funds to indoctrinate kids from other families ?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547433#Comment_118547433

Indeed, which is why the analogy was poor, and I suggested a far more accurate analogy where nobody has a gun to anyones head.

At least you’re willing to acknowledge that the department has the main responsibility to manage the education system and allocation of resources.

I take your point that there’s a huge amount schools could do to provide the form of education most amenable to your values, but that would mean foregoing their own values, and no school should have to do that. I wouldn’t encourage anyone to enrol their children in a school which is inconsistent with their values, and then attempt to undermine the values of the school. That sort of behaviour leads to outcomes like this -

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/parents-vow-to-withdraw-children-from-sex-education-class-given-by-catholic-group-1.3908704

“To this end, Educate Together will be writing to all schools under its patronage to ask them to ensure that relationships and sexuality education is delivered in a way that is consistent with its ethos and free from religious bias,” a spokesman said.

An entirely reasonable course of action from Educate Together’s perspective, IMO.

Or this -

https://www.thejournal.ie/muslim-charlie-hebdo-limerick-school-1923456-Feb2015/#comments

Now, the above example is a bit more tricky than the first, because it leans into @Hotblack Desiato ’s argument that it’s really not too much to ask that all schools treat all pupils equally and with equal respect.

It’s why I made the point that the issue is that the adults involved have no wish to treat each other’s values equally and with equal respect. Almost as if to prove my point, both yourself and HD pointed out that I would say that given what values both of you ascribed to me. I don’t take it personally because I actually do understand where both of you are coming from.

Neither of you have any business knowing that my son does a 50km commute to attend a school which both I, and his mother, agree provides an education which is consistent with our values and provides the best educational opportunities, supports, and prospects for our son’s future as an adult. My wife is not religious, it is of no consequence to her whatsoever, but she understands that not all schools are created equal, not all schools are funded equally, and a whole boatload of other criteria which parents consider for their childrens education, whether that education is provided in a traditional formal setting, or a more liberal, informal setting.

It’s precisely because I understand the OP has positioned themselves in an awful pickle that I empathise with their circumstances, and I would never sneer or jeer at anyone in similar circumstances. It’s just an incredibly immature thing to do.

It’s also why I have far less time for the Principal of an Educate Together school complaining that the daily school commute to a school which provides education consistent with their values is not a manifestation of their parental choice, and for that reason I made the point that it was misleading. For the OP, I can understand how they might have overlooked religious indoctrination or the purpose of a Catholic education (it happens!), but the Principal is not in the same position - being far more familiar with the Irish education system than most parents or guardians, they quite literally went out of their way so that their children would be spared religious indoctrination -

DURING this Catholic Schools’ Week, I’ll be reflecting on the fact that, for the past five years, my daughter has not been able to walk to our publicly funded village school with her friends but instead has to be driven to an equality-based primary school in a nearby town. This disruptive and unnecessary commute has not been the free expression of our ‘parental choice’. We did not want to move her or her brother, but we had no choice if we wanted to protect them from daily religious indoctrination.

To claim that is not the free expression of their parental choice, is the epitome of, as I suggested in the post - taking the proverbial. It’s also yet another example of the adults involved having no wish to treat each other’s values equally and with equal respect.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549518#Comment_118549518

Schools are not being asked about "foregoing their own values". They can do whatever values they want, outside the State funded mainstream curriculum. They can do their own values on their own funding, as extra curricular activities. They shouldn't be using State funding to impose their values on other people.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547439#Comment_118547439

"Who needs protection from indoctrination when your father is a preacher ..."

That is abuse and ridicule. He's not a "preacher". He just wants the education system to not treat his child as a second class citizen for the crime of not being a catholic.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549743#Comment_118549743

State funding is provided for education Andrew, I’m not sure how much more explicitly it needs to be explained to you.

No schools receive funding on the basis of their ethos, they receive funding on the basis that they are a school recognised by the department as a provider of education. Their ethos is not an extracurricular activity, it is the basis for the establishment of any school. Funding for extracurricular activities is organised by the school community.

Hotblack Desiato

OEJ that is to be frank, a load of rubbish about that Educate Together school. The parents were not in opposition to ET's ethos/values, it was the school which was failing to uphold ET ethos/values by engaging a religious group to deliver sex "education" with a fundamentalist catholic slant.

Charlie Hebdo is a magazine for adults and isn't appropriate in a school setting, even though I'd be a firm supporter of its right to ridicule religions (they don't just attack Islam). I don't know what one example of one school producing something which a pupil/family found offensive in class is supposed to prove.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549918#Comment_118549918

Oh come on now, it’s not as though I presented the examples apropos of nothing? Both were examples of my argument that it isn’t because schools don’t regard all pupils as equals and treat all pupils with equal respect, it’s the adults who do not wish to respect each other’s values, is the issue. Because you’re not religious it doesn’t follow that you don’t have values, they’re just not religious, and that’s why I use the word values instead of terms like religious beliefs or political views. Values represents something common to everyone.

In the example of the ET school principal inviting a Catholic organisation to deliver relationships and sex education was hardly just an oversight on the part of the Principal or the school board of management. It appears to me to have been a deliberate act, because of trust having broken down between all the adults involved - parents and staff alike.

In the second example, I would suggest that was nothing more than an incredibly unfortunate gaffe on the part of the teacher who was more focused on facilitating a class discussion on freedom of speech, consistent with ET ethos, it’s unlikely it even occurred to them that there were pupils in the class whose parents would have an issue with it.

It’s not hard to understand the teacher was put on the spot when the child informed them the image was offensive to him and to his religion -

“My son is not the only child within the class that is Muslim and when he explained to the teacher that this such picture was offensive to him and his religion the teacher told him that ‘it was part of his lesson’,” she claimed.

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business-news/111071/Limerick-school-apologises-for-upset-over.html

So where does your idea of it not being difficult to treat all pupils equally and with equal respect fit in? The issue clearly isn’t that pupils aren’t treated as equal and all pupils treated with respect, the issue is that the adults involved, don’t wish to respect each other’s values. My point is that these kinds of issues happen in all schools, regardless of the ethos of the school.

I do agree though that CH magazine is about as appropriate as Playboy magazine in facilitating a classroom discussion on freedom of expression! 😂

BettyBlue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549743#Comment_118549743

There are those who maintain that the 30 minutes per day assigned for the Patron's programme is not actually paid for by the DES and is actually an unpaid requirement levied on the teaching staff.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118556843#Comment_118556843

Except that the staff absolutely ARE paid.