Emigrate with young family to Sweden vs France

eatsshootsandleaves

I was wondering whether anyone might have some advice about how to go about making a major relocation decision.

We are expecting our second baby this coming March. We own a small house in the city centre but with our growing family, we'd love to move to a suburb. We have a small mortgage and have built a fair bit of equity since we bought it, but because only of us is working, we can't get a mortgage to sell/buy elsewhere in an area we like. Rental prices are insane and even though we'd get some rent for our place, the rental market seems brutal and so unstable at the moment, we'd prefer to avoid it.

Childcare is also so expensive and unavailable so even if we both get jobs, it would be a struggle to get childcare.

Most of our friends with kids have now moved out of the city so we also feel a bit isolated. Obviously Covid has not helped with regards to wellbeing either. We've had a nice enough lifestyle but are feeling very stuck, mainly due to the housing and childcare issue.

With a year's maternity leave on the horizon, we're considering whether it might be a good time to try our hand at living abroad for a few months and if we like it, sell up and buy in cash over there, and getting permission from workplace to work for them fully remotely over there or finding work elsewhere. If we get childcare sorted, we would then both be free to look for work.

We've been researching Sweden and France.

Pros of Sweden are the very affordable childcare, more affordable housing market (rent and purchase), great healthcare and education, beautiful nature, outdoors culture, and lots of facilities for families. We're considering a suburb in Gothenburg as people are considered friendlier, it's more affordable and climate is slighlly milder so we have a visit planned next month. Cons are the harsh winters, the need to learn swedish in order to find work, high taxes and it can apparently take quite long to get to know Swedes. We're both good at languages and willing to learn Swedish although we know it would take time. We've compared cost of living and apart from alcohol, Gothenburg is the same or less expensive than Dublin.

Pros of France are that my wife speaks French having lived there before, the food and wine culture, reasonably affordable childcare and property, great healthcare, and the diversity of the regions. Cons are the bureaucracy, the occasional chaos of France and its love of strikes, and how stuck in their ways French people are! We haven't decided on a region or area yet. We had originally thought Brittany or Normandy but since Covid, lots of wealthy Parisians have been buying up property there for weekend getaways so property prices are much higher than before. We're open to family-friendly destinations as long as they're reasonably accessible and not too hot in the summer. We'd love to be somewhere that is cyclist-friendly too.

We've heard you really need to give living in a new place about 2 years to get settled in which would give us enough time before our toddler started school.

As long as we have enough to get by on, we're not too fussed about making lots of money is good considering how high taxes are in both countries! We have about €30k savings which buys us a small amount of time if both of us don't get work straight away. Priorities are lifestyle, time with the kids, good work/life balance and finding a nice home.

Any thoughts welcome as we're feeling quite overwhelmed about how to go about making the decision. Thank you.

Jim2007

Probably the first thing to point out is that while you have a right to FMOP, the agreement also includes clauses to ensure you don't become a burden on the host state. So strictly speaking you are entitled to move to an EU/EEA/CH country for up to three months and to seek to have that extended to six months, but after that the host state is entitled to send you home if you have not established economic viability.

From a language point of view, you need to reach a level of at least B1 to be able to work comfortable in the host language. Now with a lot of hard work and intensive class you might be expected to reach that level in may be 18 months, but probably longer.... So what do you do in the mean time? Do you haves skills that would be so much of interest to a local employer that they'd be willing to take you on, while you learn....

Have you already lived and worked abroad? Do you know what it feels like to spend 8 or more hours a day working in a foreign language in the early days - it is mentally draining. Have you thought about the fact that you will have a young family with little or no support system beyond the two of you in a new country?

In my experience moving abroad because you don't like your current situation on economic reasons does not stand the test of time. I can't say I remember a single person that moved to Switzerland for those reasons stayed more then 18 months, it is just not enough to motivate you when the going gets tough.

If you spoke the language, were moving to a job and receiving support from your new employer or you were a single person then fine. But honestly in your situation it is a very high risk strategy.. but everyone must do what the feel is right for them and their family.

If it were me, I would not want to live in Sweden in December.... I've worked in Copenhagen for a month in winter and never again - the lack of day light made it depressing...

An other concern I have is how will it effect your kids education prospects? Will your Swedish or French be good enough to help with homework, parent meetings etc especially when they go beyond the primary level.

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938111#Comment_117938111

Hi Jim, thanks for taking the time to reply.

We would have one reasonably high salary for the first year or so due to fully paid mat leave & accrued annual leave, plus savings to fall back on so wouldn't be arriving with no income at all. Then there is the possibility of continuing to work in this job once permission to work remotely has been sought. This would give us time to rent in areas to find where we'd like to buy if we decide to stay.

My wife has C1 level in French, has lived in France and worked through French before so she knows what it entails and would be able to help with homework etc. She hopes in a few years once I am working again to reduce her hours so we can split parenting duties more equally.

I am prepared for the fact that it would be harder on me as I am the stay-at-home parent and apparently my French language levels would only be at A2 having done a language test. I studied it at school so I would be hopeful it would come back to me but I understand it takes time. Because childcare is far more available and affordable, I would be able to attend an intensive language course in order to learn the language, improve the job prospects and also hopefully make some friends.

Looking at sunrise/sunset times in Gothenburg, they get 1.5 hours less sun than Ireland in winter which isn't too bad.

However, as I read your response and type out mine, the fact that one of us already has French and has experience living in France, this does make France seem the easier option so if we are to do this at all. Like you say, emigrating is hard enough without both of us being totally at sea with the language and unfamiliar with the culture.

I'm interested in where you write "In my experience moving abroad because you don't like your current situation on economic reasons does not stand the test of time. I can't say I remember a single person that moved to Switzerland for those reasons stayed more then 18 months, it is just not enough to motivate you when the going gets tough." What would you consider to be sufficiently motivating reasons to move abroad? Is it to follow a job or a partner or something else? Interested in having your perspective on this as it sounds like you've seen a lot of people emigrate before.

Thanks again for your reply and for the questions for us to ask ourselves, it is very helpful.

Jim2007

The first thing you need to consider is that maternity leave is not holidays, so moving out of Ireland and expecting the payments to continue is a big assumption. Firstly paying a salary to someone one resident in another state can have serious tax implications for the company, which could motivate them to act. Combine that with the fact that the person is clearly no longer part of the labour force in the country etc.... and you may find it does not work out as you assume.

Over the past 30 years here, I have seen people come and go. People who come only for economic reasons usually decide that it is not worth it after all. People who stay are those that have some roots already here - partner, parents, grand parents etc... or people who have very little roots in their own country and they usually have a good command of the language before they arrive.

Your reality will be that you are a stay at home dad for at least two years in a country where you do not speaking the language and have no support system. No grand parents to take the kids for a few hours to give you a break, no friends to set up play dates etc... even trying to build up a new support system will be language dependent... And on top of that you will have to rely on your wife to do most things for you - deal with the administration, taxes, take the car to the garage, go with to the doctors/dentists etc to explain and translate for you etc... So in many cases she will be having to support three children. It's not impossible, but it takes a lot of motivation and saving a bit of money is usually not enough motivation.

Of course it is possible, but it is a lot more difficult than you expect. Going grocery shopping with two young kids is challenging enough, but doing it where the product names are in another language, some are not available in that country and you can't seek advice from the assistants... once or twice on holidays is very different to doing it every week for the long haul.

To some extent you can rely on the expats, but since they are transient it's not very stable for the long haul....

Baybay

France has a lot of merits & certain regions, even with the Parisian arrivals, may represent better value than others. However, where it’s cheaper to buy the property that suits your needs may not be where the jobs are so I think you’d need to consider location carefully.

Anecdotally, a lot of UK nationals are selling up as they cannot meet residency requirements ie language or their pensions & healthcare entitlements aren’t as clear cut which is obviously Brexit related but may have an impact on property prices in areas where there are numerous expats. Bien Ici is a good place to have a look at properties nationwide.

Dont underestimate the need to speak French. You may very well make lots of international friends or work for an English speaking company but socially it’d be beneficial not to mention all the health, financial, school etc admin things that will need to be done & France has LOTS of admin!

Sunshine & wine are fantastic but don’t rule out the benefits of being near ish an airport or port with Irish connections to get home if a sudden attack of homesickness hits. And to facilitate the ease of arrivals of grandparents etc.

And I’d also say, don’t dismiss some of the warmer parts of the country a little further south either. But above all, do plenty of research.

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941183#Comment_117941183

I appreciate you are trying to help me be realistic but by me not speaking fluent French yet means my wife will have to support three children?? Ha thanks 😆 Apparently it takes 150-180 hrs to progress to that level from A2 and like I said, I am good at languages so I would enjoy the challenge.

Also, we've had zero assistance from grandparents and playdates are rare here due to most friends leaving the area so we are not leaving a rich support system behind.

Thanks for all your input, food for thought.

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941307#Comment_117941307

Thanks Baybay. That's interesting what you say about Brits selling up, I'll check out Bien Ici.

Yes, French are famous for their bureacracy aren't they! I have a friend living in France who has been walking us through it, sounds pretty full on alright. We're lucky in that my wife used to be fluent in French and I have intermediate French and am committed to learning both beforehand and while there if we do decide to move there. So hopefully that would help somewhat.

We were considering maybe Grenoble although Ryanair only flies there seasonally. Montpellier is also meant to be quite family-friendly...

micosoft

It would be great when people make decisions that they compare like with like. It's becoming tiresome that the meme of Ireland being the worst country in the world, most expensive buildings, worst health care system etc etc. It's as if Irish house prices and rentals should stick to what they are in the worst of our property crash and literally no other city has a housing crisis right now.

Dublin is an Alpha- City in ranking. Stockholm is the equivalent. The average house price is 560,000 in Stockholm vs 412,000 in Dublin. In Gothenberg it is still higher than Dublin at 453k average house. Gothenberg is no Dublin. I mean, it's ok but not a world class city. I also am not sure that you would buy? But renting is not cheap either in these places?

As for comparing areas like Brittany? Well of course the French are buying because decent apartments in good areas of Paris are 1m+ (also English in Brittany). Parisians tend to live (like most continentals) in apartments in capital cities and have a house in the country/coast for August. They would laugh at the idea of the Irish semi with a front and back garden in walking distance to the city centre that some expect here. I mean, why not consider the west of Ireland then? or Midlands? You can buy wrecks for 24k in Longford but houses can be gotten for 100k. If you seriously compared like for like you can get the equivalent in Ireland. We are not an outlier.

In short, your economic reason for moving does not stand up. By all means move to get the experience, new skills etc. But you won't save money and costs such as moving, international school/languages, flights home, healthcare, incidentals will vastly outweigh perceived (and frankly incorrect) savings. I loved living in London, Barcelona and Munich. That was on my own. As a family you will pay a lot more without support of company relocation package. 30k is not a lot and a small cushion if something goes wrong.

I think this is more of a pipe dream but you need to take a cold hard look at your assumptions, spend less time on boards/Irish media listening to claptrap and spend time on expat sites like: https://www.thenewbieguide.se/average-house-price-stockholm-sweden/ which will open your eyes to the true cost of moving. I think a realistic view is that unless you have an employer paying for your move your will make a loss.

n.b. someone mentioned it earlier but the EU is not like the US. Moving country has lots of implications from pension to tax. You would be advised getting a tax advisor who can make sure your affairs are kept in order. Costs money but will save a lot and avoid seriously damaging your finances. Also you need to ensure assumptions around your employers maternity policy etc are adhered. Finally assumption that you can rock up in Gothenberg or Brittany and get access to childcare etc would need to be tested.

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944824#Comment_117944824

Yes, Dublin is a capital city so to compare like with like would mean comparing to Stockholm or Paris. But we are not happy in Dublin and I mentioned nowhere about wanting to live in another capital city, so would why we compare like with like? Are you equivocating beautiful Gothenburg with the likes of Longford?? 😆

I'm not sure where you are getting your info from regarding rent in the likes of Gothenburg or Brittany being expensive. According to Numbeo, Gothenburg rent is 49.37% cheaper and Nantes is 64% cheaper than in Dublin.

And moving to the Midlands or Longford would solve what exactly? 😆 We'd get a bigger house but would still have the childcare issue of having to fork half a salary on childcare after a few years on a waiting list.

I'm under no illusions that a move would be cheap. I explained already that we can live on little but we are happy to pay for value. The taxes are higher in France and Sweden but at least you get good value in exchange for your taxes. For example, have you compared Irish childcare prices with countries like Sweden and France? The average monthly cost of childcare is €1052 in Ireland whereas it is €134 in Gothenburg or €606 for private childcare in Nantes. When you have two children, something like this makes a huge difference.

I love Ireland for lots of reasons but we'll have to agree to disagree that Ireland is not an outlier in how poor our childcare, rental and healthcare systems are in comparison to other European countries when we are a first world European country paying tax just like the rest of them.

Yes, we are planning on doing lots more research re tax implications, mat leave, residency vs childcare entitlements etc, we definitely are not planning on 'just rocking up' anywhere.

My question was about how have other people gone about making emigration decisions, not about how stupid I am being for considering it, whether you think that or not! I think in our circumstances it's absolutely worth considering a move, even if it doesn't work out in the end. Yes, it's the wrong decision for some, but for others, it can turn out to be the best thing they ever did, so it's worth exploring at least. And Boards has been as helpful as any other the other discussion sites, no claptrap as far as I can see.

Tabnabs

One comment I can make is that the Swedes will be a lot more fogiving of you speaking English as your first language than the French will be. I have found French very unforgiving when you don't speak their language (including French tourists in Ireland...), but the Swedes will be a lot more relaxed and have an extremely high level of English. It will make the day to day aspects more easy. But for work, you will need Swedish to integrate with your colleagues and clients.

If you can tolerate the cold and the adaptations you have to make to get through a nordic winter, then you will be ok. If the cold isn't for you, it's the wrong country. Equally in summer, it's not unusual to get 30+ degrees of all day sunshine.

c.p.w.g.w

So if WFH is an option, why not relocate somewhere in the Midlands or West of Ireland...

Plenty of houses to be gotten very reasonable prices, and why is childcare cost an issue if one of ye are already a stay at home parent...can look to get back into the workforce once they hit school

Unfortunately is see a lot of people whose wage is almost entirely going to cover childcare, why bother working* share the tax credits with your partner

*2 income households that is

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948588#Comment_117948588

Of course we'd consider closer options before considering a drastic move abroad, but we don't want to relocate to the Midlands or the West of Ireland. If we did, I would have listed that as an option in my original post.

Just because I am a stay-at-home parent at the moment, doesn't mean I want that to be our only option. It's crazy that we've come to accept as normal that parents are discouraged from working and paying taxes because of the childcare situation.

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948417#Comment_117948417

Thanks Tabnabs, yes I had heard about the importance of Swedish in Swedish workplaces, which of course makes perfect sense! I am in the middle of a recruitment drive for a Swedish company based in Gothenburg whose working language is English, but they are unusual in that respect from what I hear. And I imagine if the staff are mostly swedish, it would of course be natural to lapse back into Swedish. Have you lived in Sweden?

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948758#Comment_117948758

If anything, i find it bizarre that we have come accept that its nessessary for both parents to have to work full time...depending on the age of your children, you might only need to stay at home for a few years before going back to work full time...

My Brother & SIL have 2 children, they see the kids in the morning before childcare and again after childcare, which is feeding time, bath and bed...I mean whats the point in having them if you basically have weekends and holidays with them...

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949048#Comment_117949048

I didn't mention anything about both of us working full-time. Where childcare is affordable, one parent could work part time or both could reduce to four days and have a much better work/life balance. This is the kind of lifestyle we would like.

But if you mean Ireland, yes both would need to work full-time in order to afford childcare. This is why we're considering leaving.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944628#Comment_117944628

It takes 150 - 180 hours of courses, plus 400 - 500 hours of study to get to B1... The only way it could work out for you is that everything works the way you expect it and it never does. And as I said before a single person, it is not a big issue if it turns out to be a FU, but with three others involved it's not so straight forward.

Yesterday I need to fix our patio door.... required a visit to professional hardware store where I found out that the unit is not longer available, that there was a retired machinist living outside the town who could probably make one for me. These are things you do now without giving it a thought, but abroad it is different... it will dear can you call this one or that one, can you come with me to where ever to explain that..... so yes from her perspective you will be the third child in a lot of situations at the start needing her to do stuff for or with you...

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952676#Comment_117952676

Thanks for the vote of confidence! 😀 We may have to agree to disagree to say that the *only* way it could work out is that every single thing goes smoothly. Surely it is completely unrealistic for anyone to expect perfection in something as challenging and unique as emigrating. My wife made a great life for herself abroad despite limited French. Challenges are par for the course and it's about your resilience and how you respond. Some survive and even thrive, and others give up.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944824#Comment_117944824

Honestly when I hear people claiming that Ireland is the worst bla bla... I take as a demonstration of their lack of knowledge, which is sometimes deliberate as they will claim whatever statistics are produced, are not real etc...

The world bank puts Ireland top of the heap ranked by gross national savings, with Sweden at 43rd position and France at 75th. But somehow the OP expects to dramatically beat the odds and do financial better in a country that is 42 or 74 positions below Ireland. When the math are that far off, they need to think again.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952980#Comment_117952980

gross national savings mean nothing. its the cost of living. we are a high tax economy and receive very little in return. you could easily live in another European country on a fraction of an Irish wage. you come across as very negative. I don't think you'd be happy anywhere. I know several people who have moved to Copenhagen who absolutely love it all year around. your previously compared property prices, but didn't look at interest rates. one of my friends is paying 1.3% fixed for life in Bordeaux and the another paying 0.3% in Copenhagen..

Geuze

Ireland is not a high tax economy.

We do have high mortgage rates, yes.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953077#Comment_117953077

are you having a laugh. 52% effective tax rate, 23 % VAT

so once you earn over 50k the government take over 70%. .....

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952980#Comment_117952980

I never said Ireland is the worst. But please show me data that indicates that rent, childcare and healthcare are better and more affordable in Ireland than in Sweden and France. I don't think I'm the one suffering with a lack of knowledge here!

eatsshootsandleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953047#Comment_117953047

Thanks Ted1. Yes our mortgage rates leave a lot to be desired too!

In terms of Dublin being an attractive place to raise a family, Ireland ranks 120 out of 150. Stockholm rates number 6. I wonder why! Yet, I'm the one who struggles with statistics and maths according to other posters on here 😆

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953047#Comment_117953047

Oh I'm not surprised it means nothing to you... and I'm evening going to debate the point with some who starts of with a statement like that.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953129#Comment_117953129

You don't get to the top of the heap by magic.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953838#Comment_117953838

Who wants to be on the top of the heap. Yeah, look at me I’m the top of the heap , but I have no disposable income. Because it’s taxed. And I get so little in return I need to buy private health insurance, childcare costs multiple more. But at least we are top..

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953129#Comment_117953129

I am not having a laugh.

Yes, the top MTR does start very early, at 35k approx.

So yes, you are correct, that income over 36k for a single person is taxed at 48.5%, and yes that is very bad.

However, overall taxes are not high.

Many earners pay hardly any income tax.

My parents on 50k pay 8-9% approx.

Many goods and services are exempt from VAT.

ted1

prsi 4.8%

usc 8%

paye= 40%

Total. 52.8%

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953848#Comment_117953848

So you want to save money.... You have the choice of the country with top recorded savings margin, one 40+ positions below it and one 70+ positions and you think you have a better chance of doing so by going with a country in the second or third place....

If you make the money you can afford to pay the taxes, but reducing your probability of making the cash in case you have to pay the taxes..... I have worked in financial services in a couple of European countries and this idea of lets not make money in case we have to pay taxes is a very British Isles thing and you don't even have the highest effective tax rates.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959306#Comment_117959306

You lost me at British isles. Also the chart says 48% our is 52% so it’s not trustworthy

That chart doesn’t look at the stealth taxes. We get very little in return for our taxes. so our euros don’t get us much.

what’s the cost of childcare in France or Sweden

if you lose you job in France you get 57% of your salary.

lots of other benefits that cost us a lot more. As previously mentioned interest rates are far higher here,, road tax is much higher and lots more things

micosoft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953047#Comment_117953047

We aren't a high tax economy and we get plenty of services in return for what we pay for. Of course you will use casting central buzzwords like "stealth taxes" and cherrypick areas we are high on without acknowledging where

• we pay low or no charges such as Property Tax or Water Charges (that are normal in developed economies)
• we have lowest tax for low paid and tax transfer such as non means tested children allowance
• our choice of low density living & once off housing creates that creates huge burden on the tax payer such as road tax to pay for the network.
• our choice to not evict delinquent mortgage holders and policy on bank reserves from the 2008 bust leads to higher interest rates as mortgage holders pay for free housing

Thats just a few off the top of my head. Ireland is within the 6 best countries to live in on the planet. There are tradeoffs but your post indicates an ignorance of the outside world along with an agenda to cherrypick/repeat certain talking points to suit a narrative.

My point remains that the OP should move to another EU country if they feel they want to expand their and their families world or take up an opportunity. But not to somehow save money based on an incorrect analysis of Ireland vs. Sweden, France or frankly any other country on the planet.