Anti-British Xenophobia and Hatred in Ireland

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210587/anti-british-xenophobia-and-hatred-in-ireland

I am not sure it is as widespread as you think. Each post does not equate to a different person. In relation to British politicans that is at policies that may effect Ireland and yes it does spill outtopeople who vote for them but no more the Irish politics or USA politics.

I say Lowery Mcilroy and the American spectators were been blamed most. In fairness more were saying how good the American golf was

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954561#Comment_117954561

Speak of facts, but talk of pejoratives.

Can you give me a list of examples of Irish 'right-wingers' who are anti-Irish? Are you going to do a Paddy Holohan on us?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955431#Comment_117955431

LOL, classic.

Some people cant help themselves dig a hole to China.

dd973

There's no country called Britain, it's an Archipelago, the English aren't all from Romford as people seem to believe here either.

Do Scousers, Sunderland or Devon people talk like Danny Dyer? A work colleague from Middlesbrough used to be driven up the wall by people talking like Dick Van Dyke to him, it's like talking to someone from Cork in a Nordie or Dublin accent, completely absurd.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957413#Comment_117957413

Exactly. But the usual angle on these type of 'woe is us' threads is that any criticism of British government activity is 'hating'.

Beechwoodspark

If any of you have lived in England for a significant period, you will almost surely come across anti Irish sentiment.

I noticed it more in the south than the north of England but then again I never lived in north just visited it regularly

i was based in a number of places such as Luton and Enfield and some parts of london /greater london environs

Some of the questions I used to get were designed to passive aggressively denigrate ireland

for example ppl used to say things like does ireland have the internet?

Does ireland have electricity?

is there still food shortages over in ireland?

then of course with brexit this was all ramped up

had an elderly gent say to me one morning in a Greg’s that the English should go back and take over ireland and be done with the whole thing

this type of thing. It is tiresome and wearing on the spirit after a while.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954200#Comment_117954200

Why would the taxpayer be on the hook for an early settlement figure reached by two Central banks?

There was no default involved.

HalloweenJack

I've been reading this thread on and off so apologies if I mention something that's already been addressed. It's more of a list of points that occur to me rather than one cohesive post.

There are many reasons why I am sceptical and wary of anything 'official' coming out of the UK.

Have the UK ever apologised in an official capacity for acts of colonialism (either here or in other places)?

The UK establishment spent centuries trying to extinguish Irish culture and did a pretty decent job at it. They continue to do attempt to do so in Scotland, Wales and NI.

Despite being a "United" Kingdom, the power is held by England so they had to create a British identity (that is overwhelmingly based on English culture, rarely are things from that are uniquely Scottish or Welsh held up as examples of British culture) and convince the rest of us that we are all part of it and shouldn't feel excluded. In theory, it sounds nice but their way of pursuing this inclusivity was anything but.

They still occupy part of Ireland and contributed to favouring one side for a long time. The fact that they don't want to persecute British soldiers who shot their own citizens (regardless of their politics, the victims of British soldiers in NI were British citizens) should be a red flag in this day and age. It sets a precedent that British soldiers can shoot British citizens who are protesting. What kind of country allows its armed forces to kill its own citizens without consequences?

British democracy is not something to aspire to. FPTP means that a party can win 40%-odd percent of the vote and have an 80 seat majority whereas the system in Scotland is designed to avoid a majority while NI has guaranteed power-sharing. The Brexit referendum should also have been handled a lot better.

The British education system seems to present a sanitised version of history. Cromwell is championed and I have met quite a few English people who have little to no understanding of the situation in Ireland. Wasn't there a fairly-recent NI secretary who had no idea about the inter-community problems that were going to be part of her portfolio?

British society seems to be quite unfair and fractured. I don't think it is something we should emulate or applaud. The power still wielded by the British elite and the existence of a monarchy in modern society (in any country, btw) is infuriating. Owing to our history, I think Irish people tend to empathise with the opprssed and the underdogs and that simply doesn't stack up with how the UK has been ruled.

I do enjoy seeing this English/British exceptionalism fall flat on its face, much as I do with any country that behaves similarly (the USA, France's dealings in Africa).

Looking through history and looking at how this particular British administration behaves, I think there is plenty of reason for Irish people in particular to be wary of the British estbalishment and its pursuits as it rarely has been in the interests of Ireland and when it has, it has only been because they benefitted as well.

My problems with British society and what the UK represents are all do with the establishment and its official structures. I have quite a few English friends and, as with anyone, I'll give people from there a chance to get to know them. I don't dismiss anything and everything that is English/British without thinking about it.

Of course, there are some Irish people who will blindly hate the English/British but its nowhere near as bad as the OP makes out. From reading through this thread, a lot of the complaining in this regard reminds me of Israeli defenders labelling any criticism of Israeli policy as 'anti-semitic', i.e. simplistic, emotive and a great way to distract without addressing the criticism and put the other person on the back foot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957675#Comment_117957675

You do realise Scotland and Wales have devolved power (NI too) ...

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957746#Comment_117957746

Yes, I am well aware of that. Its just bizarre that so many different systems are in place but the one that benefits England the most is used for GEs.

ancapailldorcha

Despite being a "United" Kingdom, the power is held by England so they had to create a British identity (that is overwhelmingly based on English culture, rarely are things from that are uniquely Scottish or Welsh held up as examples of British culture) and convince the rest of us that we are all part of it and shouldn't feel excluded. In theory, it sounds nice but their way of pursuing this inclusivity was anything but.

This is the key point. There isn't really a British identity outside England. Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish all identify as Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish for the most part. The British identity is fading in England quite notably as well according to census results. Heck, it's not even legally possible to formally identify as Black English FFS.

Just as Yugoslavia could endure Bosniak and Croat nationalism but ended due to Serbian nationalism, so too will English nationalism end the UK. Brexit is just the first step towards the end of the union.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957746#Comment_117957746

Seriously? You respond to a post which took a lot of time to write with this nothing one-liner? The administrations barely have any real power and the Scottish one has been majority separatist for years and is yet powerless to act on that mandate.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957966#Comment_117957966

yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957552#Comment_117957552

if the money is borrowed on a fixed rate basis, then early penalties apply. If you don't want penalties, then you pay higher interest rates. Don't forget, the British government would be borrowing the money, so they would need to ensure their cost of borrowing is overed.

That's what the Irish government wanted, it is what they agreed to and they did not ask to cut the term short. Why would they, when they were borrowing money at a very low rate.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957675#Comment_117957675

aah, the "Chat".

I'm always reminded of Matthew 7.5 when I read things like this.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955060#Comment_117955060

Classic doublespeak from the NTMA there. Of course they didn't formally make an offer, they sounded it out and satisfied themselves that such an offer would not be accepted. It was a businesslike arrangment all right, but it wasn't between businesses it was between states and it would have been embarrassing for both sides if a formal offer had been made and then refused.

Exactly the same situation as Michael D and Partitionfest up north. Heads of state decline to attend events all the time, you just don't hear about it because anyone who has half a clue makes feelers diplomatically / through backchannels beforehand and avoids the embarrassment of issuing an invitation which may not be accepted.

Also, fixed rate or not it's common for lenders to accept early settlement offers at a discount. Ironically, the fact that Ireland was no longer a default risk meant that there was no benefit in the UK "getting their money in their hand" and they could hold out for the full sum with no risk.

That's fine. Because it was a business arrangement, not the act of charity some paint it as. But really, in some ways the worst thing we could have done was accept a penny off them - we didn't need it (given IMF and EU loans) and it's been used as a stick to beat our nation with ever since.

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958094#Comment_117958094

Care to add more to that?

I looked up Matthew 7:5 there and it seems to be to do with hypocrites. Care to enlighten us on why you think my post was hypocritical?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958249#Comment_117958249

not so much the hypocrite bit, but the Irish certainly need to cast out the beam of their own eye.

I mean, this country quite clearly voted for a change from Fine Gael or Fine Fail by giving the majoirty of the popular vote to SF, so intead the people got Fine Fail and Fine Gael, but apparantly FPTP is undemocratic.

And don't give me this crap about sanitised versions of history, outside of North Korea, there is probably no country that gives a more sanitised version of its own history than Ireland. When the Irish accept their own part in the famine, or the partition of Ireland, then come back to me.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958335#Comment_117958335

Laughable, in modern history the Brits are second only to the Nazis, but are hailed as conquering heroes. Concentration camps, genocide, illegal chemical attacks, all used by the Brits before Hitler was ever heard of. The Nazis just did it in a shorter timescale

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958335#Comment_117958335

The combination of FF/FG/Greens got over 50% of the vote. This is what Preferential voting is good at. It means a block can split into different sections as suits their needs without reducing the power of the block as a whole. It allows you to have multiple parties instead of just 2 serious parties, if we had FPTP then our party system would have been different and we would have 2 parties instead of the not Sinn Fein vote being split. I mean I don't like the results but I am not going to claim having a government with over 50% of first preference votes represented is not democratic.

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958335#Comment_117958335

SF got 24.5% of the vote. FG got 20.9% and FF 22.2%. In terms of seats, it was SF 23%, FF 23% and FG 22%. FG and FF together got 43.1% of the vote and 45% of the seats. They needed the Greens (7.1% of the vote and 8% of the seats) to form a government that represents 50.2% of the votes and 53% of the seats. In 2019, the Tories got 43.6% of the vote and 56.2% of the seats. Which one seems more democratic to you?

As for history, the partition of Ireland is a direct result of the UK's centuries of intervention in Ireland as it did its best to subdue the local population. If it weren't for the plantations and colonisation, there wouldn't be two separate communities up North.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958367#Comment_117958367

yep, the Irish version of history keeps popping up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958405#Comment_117958405

which is also why absolutely nothing gets done and we never ever have the policies we voted for.

Very deomcratic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958428#Comment_117958428

maybe the descendants of Irish colonialism just thought they had a right to return to the mother country?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958484#Comment_117958484

“Irish version” hahaha.

Concentration camps in South Africa aren’t Irish history. “Of the 107,000 people interned in the camps, 27,927 Boer women and children died as well as more than 14,000 Black Africans.”

Genocide of the Bengal people isn’t Irish history. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/4/1/churchills-policies-to-blame-for-1943-bengal-famine-study

British War Crimes are nothing to do with Ireland. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958494#Comment_117958494

I'm on my phone but a brief overview can be had by reading the 'Planning the plantation' section of the Wikipedia article for the Ulster Plantation, though I don't know if your reply was serious or trying to be smart.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958490#Comment_117958490

You said Ireland voted for change but 50%+ didn't. You could also include Labour in that as well. We do have the policies we voted for, we just happened to have a lot of votes for FF and FG.

However I would consider it democratic. FPTP tends to stop people voting for policies they want and simply go to tactical voting to avoid who you don't. The US has started churning out election candidates who are most notable for their unpopularity but neither side can move away from their party as FPTP does not allow serious 3rd parties in a region. Northern Ireland has been dominated by not the other party as opposed to any nuanced talk and the UK has a government that most voters did not vote for, Ireland has one most people did.

Larbre34

The ordinary people of Britain should hate the British establishment just as much as the rest of the World, after all, they're the ones paying for it and getting fooked by it at the same time.

I don't hate the British, I pity them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958571#Comment_117958571

Matthew 7.5

Snickers Man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944462#Comment_117944462

Someone who would never say "I seen" for a start. :)

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958631#Comment_117958631

So I'm not a "Westbrit"? Phew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958563#Comment_117958563

42% voted for none FG or FF parties and guess what, we got FF and FG.

As much as I dislike SF, this country needs them to get in to power to break up the system that keeps the gravy train rolling for the elite.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958546#Comment_117958546

smart? If you go invading and colonising countries, don't be surprised if a few of the natives follow you home.

joseywhales

Well I guess there is varied opinion regarding the British. I don't hate Britain, I have some British family and friends. I particularly like some friends I have from Carlisle and Wales and in general I think the northerners have a good culture. As a country the UK obviously has a dark past but we can't blame the child for the sins of the father. We have a lot of shared culture and similarities. I would never trust the British government in anything however. I had time for Theresa May, she seemed to have some integrity and honesty about her but the current government barely trust each other it seems. I believe the Irish government should position itself such that the UK is no different from any other western European country. I would put the UK on a level footing with the french or the Spanish. Civilized, reasonable but totally self interested. Which is fine.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958643#Comment_117958643

I mean I agree that I don't want FG and FF in power but I really don't know what you want. Do you want to kick them out on your say so? Do we ignore that people voted for them in large numbers and just chuck out democracy altogether? I mean most people didn't vote Sinn Fein so that is hardly more democratic to just stick them in for the sake of it. Outside of a massive landslide there will be a significant minority in any country that did not vote for the government, indeed for FPTP you will likely get a result that the majority voted against.

You complained about our democratic system and now you seem to be complaining that it gave a democratic result? You don't have to agree with people on FF/FG/Greens but you do have to accept that is how people voted.

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958657#Comment_117958657

Did you read the link?

What you posted would be better directed at those British citizens who complain about immigrants.

Fanofconnacht

The people best able to judge Irish \ English dynamic are people who have lived significant time in both juristictions. A few observations

• Every country in the world has probably a pretty constant proportion of Ass**. A country with 50million will produce more than one of 5 million simple maths.
• Newspaper headlines do not always represent reality and sometimes not even the story underneath.
• It is human nature to love to see the big team \ neighbour beaten \ humbled etc. Irish \ Scots \ Welsh all love beating England and love to see anyone beating them. There are lots of English people who lose seeing England lose especially at cricket. All of us outside Dublin love to see Dublin losing at Bogball.
• The vast vast majority of English \ Irish have absolutely no issue with their neighbour.
• The biggest difference between both nationalities that I see is education levels they are so much higher in Ireland on average.
• As regards politicians I used to think UK politicians were of a higher standard than Irish, especially when they quickly resigned when they were involved in scandals. Watching how brexit unfolded changed all of that especially as regards Conservatives (I used to be a Conservative supporter). Jeremy Corbyn was not any better. They have made Irish Politician all look like world class statesmen in recent years. Brexit is a complete sh** show for England.
• Yes we have had a troubled history with England just like a significant proportion of the world. Likewise many have had a troubled history with French, Spanish, Germans, Chinese, Portughese, Romans, Greeks, Ottomans, Moors, Huns Vandals, CELTS, Vikings etc etc. We need to get over it. We cannot blame todays people for whatever their ancestors did in the past.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958643#Comment_117958643

What sort of absolute scutter is this?

In Ireland the government parties got over 50% of first preference votes

In the UK, the government party got under 44% of the votes, but a large majority in parliament.

But something something handwavey something something Ireland is less democratic.

Uhuh.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958685#Comment_117958685

Two different systems, similar results. One gives a coalition that spends most of its time negotiating with itself, the other gives a strong mandate so that the government can get on and do stuff.

Its the reason why nothing gets done here, because the system is set up to avoid a majority. Real change never happens unless there are outside forces making it happen.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958722#Comment_117958722

I've spent over a decade now here in the UK. I've nothing against the average Brit but it's obvious even to the casual observer that the system is stacked against them. Take the Brexit debate for instance. A popular tactic by the Brexit side was to interview someone from "the north" for a quote on how immigration ruined the country. That's the only time the media shows any interest in the UK outside London. The same individual wonders why their local hospital or police station closed and nobody pays them the slightest heed.

It's important to bear in mind just how unequal and centralised this country is. It was so even before the coalition of a decade ago stripped away nearly half of all local authority funding. In the meantime, there are more foodbanks than McDonald's restaurants.

This also applies to the media where a few men effectively control the narrative. While this doesn't mean control of elections, the broken voting system makes up for that.

The result is rampant partisanship and widespread misunderstanding of key issues. This fuelled the Brexit debate where you had people voting to leave because there were too many Indians or too many immigrants in general despite most immigrants coming from outside the EU. They complain that their areas are rotting economically while voting for the party that sold off key British industries to their friends.

Dumping Bible quotes and getting hysterical does not change this. To be fair, my quality of life here far exceeds what I'd expect in most of Ireland. Here, I work in an elite research facility whereas back home I'd struggle to find a job scrubbing toilets.

What makes me despair is that far too few people are interested in anything more than partisan sniping.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958701#Comment_117958701

you're the one complaining that a majority of people in the North don't want a united Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958756#Comment_117958756

because FF anf FG had to find some random TDs to make up the numbers, like they do every year.

Who knows, Eamonn Ryan may get a job at the UN at the end of it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958722#Comment_117958722

Aah the old "We have the best education system in the world" myth

https://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/where-does-ireland-rank-on-the-most-educated-countries-list-39928

but in fairness, Ireland does score marginally higher for reading, Maths and Science, thanks mainly to a very high standards of mathematics

https://factsmaps.com/pisa-2018-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-mathematics-science-reading/

hardly "So much higher", as you claim.

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958876#Comment_117958876

Go on, link the post where I said that.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958844#Comment_117958844

Our system is more democratic in that it reflects the political views of the majority.

Are we seeing frustrated SF voters suddenly seeing that FPTP is a preferable system because that would have delivered a SF Dail majority?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959016#Comment_117959016

does it, or does it just list parties in order of preference?

How many people voted for the Green Party because they actually wanted the green party to get seats, rather than just voting for them because they disliked them less than they dislike someone else?

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958367#Comment_117958367

The Germans were always more efficient.

German Nazis - since you're identifying a people.

The majority membership of the NSDAP were German.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958883#Comment_117958883

What is the above nonsense supposed to mean? Do you even know yourself?

Fanofconnacht

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958952#Comment_117958952

I did not say that Irish education system best in world, I did not even say in was better than UK system. What I said was on average Irish people are better educted than English. The main reason is participation rates in education particularly 3rd level. It is nothing to do with absolute standard of education system in each country.

A further point on the teaching of history in the respective countries. While yes the English do not study a whole lot of Irish history we focus too much on the English as the sole cause of our woes for 800 years. We never focus on the internal lack of unity \ infighting which prevented us defeating English invaders for hundreds of years after we had invited them in. While today England has a population 10 times than of Ireland, pre famine it was only about twice. Historically we were not always the weakling our history portrays us to be.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959134#Comment_117959134

which bit was confusing?

when i last voted, I voted for the people I wanted to win and then some other folks (including greens) because there were two people on the ticket I did not want to see get in.

Given the choice, I wouldn't have voted for three of those that I did, but the system meant I could vote against the people I definitely didn't want in. Is that democracy, or a beauty parade?

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959078#Comment_117959078

You could ask the same question of those who voted for any party, not just Green voters and would still apply in a FPTP system.

I see similarities between SF today and FF of earlier times. I expect SF to call a referendum on replacing multi-seat constituency PR just like FF did in 1959 (3rd amendment), a proposal which was narrowly rejected.