What can be done about mass shootings in America?

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962355#Comment_117962355

There's loads of sport applications for handguns/AR15 style rifles.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962355#Comment_117962355

Not a justification but it becomes very much a matter of how the 2A has been interpreted by courts stateside.

The judicial stance has been that the right to bear arms is inextricably tied up in the notion of militia and the right of defence against tyranny. The courts have previously opined that the 18th century notion of defence against same means that the right to bear arms was drafted to mean that weapons of similar capability to Army were needed as otherwise the Militia would be immediately disadvantaged.

The right to bear arms, and the right to militia to a constitutional originalist, means equivalent personal firepower. It's utterly corrupt legalese IMO, but the US resistance to modernising the Constitution, the difficulty in amendments and the strength of pro-gun lobby makes it impossible.

The restrictions on full auto and other specific categories tend to all fail the 2A test and eventually get struck down.

Even weapons that are full auto, suppressed and even actually explosively destructive are available on grant of an NFA tax stamp.

Lunacy.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962371#Comment_117962371

It's not really the primary purpose though is it? Maybe I could be wrong, I'm no expert. Like if they have sport applications then make them incapable of killing people then. Like paint ball or bbs or whatever. You can still do rifle shooting or clay pigeon etc. What makes it more sporting to play with a weapon that's easy to conceal?

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962394#Comment_117962394

I suppose that's the difference, you see weapon, I see a sweet bit of kit. In terms of sporting as long as there is a level playing field between competitors it's sporting. Why handgun vs rifle? Why tennis vs badminton? I can hear you say already, but ones a lethal weapon. Fair, however the latest handgun roundup in Ireland didn't do anything for all the gangland killings.

For example I'd love a Colt Python, just to do a bit plinking with (informal target shooting). Beautiful looking handgun and I'm not particularly partial to handguns in general. Note that'd but one of the older production runs, not the current model.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962394#Comment_117962394

Not sure which sport applications Feisar is talking about specifically - but rendering sports equipment nonlethal does not automatically guarantee they can still have a sport application. For example I use some seriously sharp knives when I am out fishing. You can do a lot of damage with these knives to a human being. In fact with the training I have in combat - and knife combat being one of those areas I specifically played with - I could do a lot more damage with a knife than some amateur making pathetic stabby stabby motions trying to poke you with the pointy end.

If however you rendered my sports equipment non-lethal it is entirely likely you would render them useless for their primary purpose too. I might as well bring a butter knife to gut my fish with and cut my line.

Further as I said earlier in the thread - the people who are going to line up and take the modified equipment you refer to are likely to be the people least likely to be intent on using that equipment in a harmful way in the first place. It would appear to be an agenda that would result in the most amount of inconvenience for the most innocent majority of society and would affect the people we are genuinely worried about not a jot.

It's a bit like laws making buying or selling sex illegal. In the presence of such laws - sex work still happens. But by definition the men and women who go to pay for sex are people intent on knowingly breaking the law and disregarding it. The people we most want to visit sex workers - those who respect the law - are exactly the people we keep away from the sex workers door.

Paradoxically I wonder if much of the gun violence and injury would be reduced if we went the other direction and started training people on gun care and use. Much like how teaching people martial arts reduces their tendency to actually get into fights in the first place - or to hurt themselves and others when they do - actually teaching people the art of injury and violence can reduce injury and violence. I often wonder if the same principle could apply to guns.

I wonder it enough to the point I have availed of a chance opportunity to teach myself and my (now) 11 year old daughter how to use and fire rifles. And I hope when my son and his younger siblings each turn 8/9 to start teaching them too. And so far I think that choice has been nothing but a 100% good and positive thing.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962459#Comment_117962459

Credit to you in that at least you are open and honest about seeing guns as, well ... kit ... objects of leisure, ... or some such term. Range-toys.

There are others who post on threads like these who wont come out of that closet.

But its pointless for them to hide because most of the people theyre trying to bullsht are men, men who were also 14 once upon a time and know exactly what the real motivation is.

Its not hunting, or the burglar which has a grown man running round in camo gear with a uv scoped 50 cal.

Try getting them to own up though...

seamus

The second amendment does tend to get re-interpreted a bit, but overall it has been found to not legalise someone stockpiling military weapons, and focusses more on the right of an individual to have weapons at home should they ever be needed.

From an outsider's perspective, there is a lot of debate particularly around the AR-15-style. It looks like a military weapon.

It looks like the kind of weapon we've seen in every single war movie since the 1970s:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091763/mediaviewer/rm542471936/

I got into this with someone who loves guns, and it turns out that it's really just window dressing. It's a pretty ordinary gun underneath it at all, just dressed up in macho clothes to make the owners feel like they're Rambo. A marketing gimmick. And of course they sell all sorts of attachments and bit and bobs to further the facade.

It's a 1 litre Ford Fiesta with a body kit and a loud exhaust.

The reality is that it's not a military weapon. It doesn't even come close to the standard issue military stuff. It just looks the part. Being mostly a mechanical device and widely-owned, there are of course some mods that can be made to make it fire in an automatic way. But these tend to be outlawed pretty quickly.

The reality is that most mass shootings in the US use a multitude of weapons (whatever they can get their hands on), and the vast majority of people who die in mass shootings (like 90%+) are shot with a handgun.

The discussion around sport rifles and such is largely a distraction because outlawing them wouldn't in any way reduce the number or intensity of mass shootings in the US.

sheesh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962090#Comment_117962090

he's probably mixing it up with opiods very addicive very bad withdrawal symptoms that can lead to suicidal thoughts

sheesh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962355#Comment_117962355

Ar 15 is just a semi automatic rifle that can be tarted up to look like a military rifle. it is basically a hunting rifle. Also it is not a specific product it is a more of a design specification for how the gun works.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962816#Comment_117962816

Suicidal ideation is also a common side-effect of many anti-depressants. I know that sounds insanely counter-intuitive, but it's a case that it takes a number of weeks taking anti-depressants to get yourself back to a point of equilibrium.

If someone attends a doctor with deep depression they may feel like they want to die, but they are so demotivated that they just do nothing. A quote I read online somewhere was, "When I went on anti-depressants, I was still suicidal but now I had the energy to feel like I could actually go through with it".

There is a massive risk period of 2-6 weeks after someone goes on anti-depressants where they need to be closely watched and encouraged to report any feelings about harming themselves or another. But this isn't widely advertised or discussed. Your brain is all over the bloody place, you're liable to follow through on some of the darker thoughts that come to you.

sheesh

ds

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211205/what-can-be-done-about-mass-shootings-in-america

...a clear indication of major social breakdown, very evidentially in providing critical health care needs.... a major lesson to us all, never ever ignore your health care needs ever, or......

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962355#Comment_117962355

I can't but in the States self defense is a perfectly legitimate reason to own a gun. There's even concealed carry permits so one can carry a handgun at all times. There's also open carry. You'l see arseholes doing youtube vids open carrying in towns just to say look at me. Usually the vid will involve an encounter with police.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961671#Comment_117961671

If that was the case Ireland and most other countries would have the same issue.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963024#Comment_117963024

Would they? Would that not be assuming that access to drugs and mental health issues are the same in those countries as in the US? I am interested in how the assumption that most other countries would have the same issue can be made - without making the assumption that there is an equivalence in their drug and mental health situation? Or am I wildly misunderstanding what you are suggesting here (also likely)?

But these things are vastly different from country to country. One can not even get medication for Pin Worm - one of the most common parasitic infections in humans - without a prescription in Germany for example but you can simply buy it over the counter in the UK and Ireland.

While my friends in Ireland who have sought access to mental health support faced high bills and waiting lists - the people I know in Germany (including one user of boards) were able to basically walk in off the street and get 8 hours right away on their medical insurance and after those 8 hours if the professional signed a document to say the patient does indeed need further therapy - up to something like 60/80 hours per annum free of charge too straight away while another simple document can double that again.

So if we are examining the claim that gun violence is tied to medication and mental health structures - that we would see equivalent results in most other countries - when in fact even neighboring countries can differ wildly in their drug and mental health regimes - would just seem on the face of it to be a shaky assumption to start with.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962730#Comment_117962730

If its got the magazine capacity of a military weapon, which it looks to have here (or close to), and if its available in a military calibre, which it probably is, and if it has 2 of the 3 firing settings of a military weapon, ... then wouldnt it effectively be a military weapon but just without the automatic setting.

No need for the likes of it.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962213#Comment_117962213

A main battle tank.

There are a fair few hoops, it's not like you can just go to the local gun store and buy one (Plus they tend to be a bit pricey. Even basic machineguns and assault rifles are routinely some $20k), but they are legal. I've a friend who owns several, (and a bunch of friends who own WW2 tanks) they are fully functional. Interestingly, the paperwork and taxes mean that they generally only fire armor-piercing and canister: Each high explosive round comes with a $200 tax stamp and such onerous paperwork requirements they are not normally worth the effort.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962355#Comment_117962355

If you need to kill a human being, it's the best thing for it. Around here, we think that if you have the right to self defense, you have the right to the equipment to use it. Handguns mainly because they are convenient. AR15s are also very popular for hunting and pest control. Remember, the object of the exercise is to put a projectile on target, the projectile doesn't care what the target it. The design features which make modern rifles useful for military purposes (eg ergonomics, accuracy, modularity, customizability, maintainability) are the exact same which make them useful for any civilian purpose. Today's 30.06 Springfield bolt-action deer-getter started out as the Army's standard service rifle a century ago.

As others have said, it's down to 'how to live with them', not 'how to get rid of them'. Even if some major gun confiscation law were passed (it won't be), there is no mechanism in US law to enforce one. Good luck getting rid of the 4th Amendment.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963143#Comment_117963143

I actually don't disagree at all. If it's about sport shooting, then automatic loading is not necessary. The argument is that it allows the shooter to fire multiple rounds without having to adjust their aim. Surely if you're shooting for sport, it's all about getting each shot right and not about firing in quick succession?

But the discussion about guns gets so bogged down in these specifics so frequently, when it's a total red herring. Even if all weapons like this were to disappear overnight, mass shootings and murders in the US would be unaffected.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962269#Comment_117962269

On the whole, the US is a failed entity beyond fixing. The main reason that other countries have open gun laws without the mass shootings is a cultural issue. American culture is what's broken here, not gun laws. American culture rewards selfishness, sociopathy and greed. Honesty, empathy, selflessness and charity without reward are seen as a sign of weakness.

I've been living in US a few years now, can't say I agree with this part of your statement. By no means saying it is perfect, but it is not the immoral dystopian place either.

As with a lot of places, the bad stories get attention but it still has a lot of positives. At least that's my experience in New England region, which to be fair is very different to a lot of the rest of the country in many ways. Even here, the 'Live Free or Die' motto of New Hampshire actually makes me thing of just how engrained the abject fear many here do have when it comes to government legislation. A fear which I think is irrational in the world of the 21st century.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963324#Comment_117963324

Depends on the sport. If accuracy can be a thing, why not test speed -and- accuracy?

Here's one from the highly violent society of New Zealand. Looks kindof fun to me. And note how fast those old Winchester lever-actions put rounds downrange.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8DdZnsnACg

A more popular sport (because you don't need the clothes) is 3-gun. Again, speed and accuracy both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-2maNktXKk

Manic Moran

Either way, much of the above discussion is irrelevant to the topic of mass shootings. Although I believe that firearms training in schools such as we do with sex ed or driving will reduce the accident rate or observe that Americans are shooting each other at high rates, the vast majority of shootings in the US are not spree shootings such as the OP is presumably referring to.

These are normally characterized by two unique characteristics: 1. It is not a combat situation. There is normally nobody shooting back, arguments about magazine size and rate of fire are in practice irrelevant. That chap in the UK in August has plenty of time to put a round into his shotgun in between victims. The most egregious shootings have happened as the gunman has hunted victims at his own pace in a confined area like a small island or a university building. Focusing on weapons types are a red herring.

2. Motivations. The larger spree shootings tend to be motivated by some publicity desire, either political or just for fame. We as a society feed this. Psychologists have been arguing for years that the publicity we give these shooters is exactly what they want. Named like Brevik and Cho are burned into common knowledge. Tarrant's manifesto was widely spread online. I admit to reading it. It will infringe on few people's rights to stop giving these people the exact publicity they are looking for. And it will be far easier than restricting firearms. The irony is that the only times I've really seem media refrain from mentioning names is when someone from their own organization is amongst the victims. Otherwise, if it bleeds, it leads.

The lesser publicized (but arguably bigger) problem is much harder to deal with: Folks with personal grudges against employers or people. That falls under a much larger societal problem of shooting being an acceptable course of action for personal redress. (This also is a factor in a number of other types of shooting such as gang related).

Melodeon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963724#Comment_117963724

Both disciplines, unfortunately, illegal here because 'tactical training' and 'scary guns' ☹️

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961671#Comment_117961671

Access to guns are an issue... you can have all the drugs, be batshit crazy but you are unlikely to have the same opportunity to kill somebody with a baseball bat as you are a Remington R51

Ubbquittious

The Statesian world is a dog-eat-dog one. Lots of people with untreated mental health issues, no affordable treatment available for them. If you have a streak of bad luck over there with work or health it is quite hard to pick yourself up from it and you stand to lose your belongings very quickly. I am actually surprised that there aren't more people over there who go on a shooting/bombing spree as one last "f**k you" to society before finishing themselves off. Even a lot of people who are doing well for themselves there have fierce stress. Perscription drugs are usually what they turn to but some fellas would rather go on a shooting spree.

A good few shooters have been youngsters who failed to 'fit in'. Similar to the incel problem it is one that nobody has made any real attempt to solve other than sneering at those affected, but some solution will eventually have to be found for this as it's only becoming more common.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963951#Comment_117963951

A good belt from a baseball bat or a golf club will kill you, or worse leave you in a nursing home half-dead for the rest of your days. Not the same 'spree' potential but deadly all the same

Manic Moran

Another factor of major spree shootings is preparation time. A good bit of planning and acquisition goes into it. (Which is why, fortunately, a number have been stopped still in the planning phase). Such a person may well simply build their own gun. I'm not talking about folks with the $200 milling machine or a good 3D printer, but as Phil Luty in the UK showed, it is perfectly possible to build a functional submachine gun with parts from your local DIY store and no special tools. (His step by step guide is published and freely available. It takes about a week). As SMGs go, it's pretty horrible, but perfectly serviceable of you want to, say, walk into a church, cinema or classroom. Indeed, in order to secure the conviction, the police had to test the guns to make sure they worked. Folks use factory guns because they are cheap and available. That does not deny that slightly less convenient options are available. If one is going to go to the trouble of planning a spectacular crime, getting the firearm isn't the biggest problem to solve.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962355#Comment_117962355

They are one in the same , they are different tools for different jobs but equally effective as either

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963989#Comment_117963989

You'd want to be some lad to go a killing spree with a baseball bat.

One or two unarmed men can disarm someone with a bat.

Twenty unarmed men can't disarm someone with a gun.

You can walk into a gun shop and buy an Uzi for home defence. I cannot fathom the circumstances where you would need an Uzi to defend yourself.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963324#Comment_117963324

well yeah its a red herring, the US is never coming out of their gun culture screw up. the gun fetishists ensure that. no matter the collateral.

but on the sports issue. in a normal country we can easily see that the sporting pleasure of some tiny percentage of people who like to run around a range is of no real importance, not when it is overshadowed by the potential endangering of the wider population.

want to run around with a toy that goes bang bang bang for entertainment, well we'll fix you up with a fancy laser projector and realistic blowback.

as for needing a gun, fair enough, heres a hunting rifle. it doesnt hold 20 rounds but then again you've no need for 20 rounds.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211205/what-can-be-done-about-mass-shootings-in-america

The Swiss situation is very different. The guns that are held in Switzerland are tightly controlled and registered. The owners have been vetted and also trained in their use and their safety. But in the US I too think that it goes deeper than merely the availability of guns. American society is inherently violent. They generally enjoy hurting or killing people. The cops brutalize people by smashing their faces into the ground for the slightest infraction and people cheer them on. It's a "fcuk you" society. Their movie culture as well has conditioned them to this shooting and killing is fun and macho. The whole mindset needs to change.