"Green" policies are destroying this country

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020906#Comment_119020906

You saw no mention of onshore windfarms because I was talking about offshore development. No need to try read anything more than that out of it.

As for Derrybrien, you won't find anyone who thinks that wasn't a fustercluck from the get go.

On the flip side, it's a good thing imho that requirements are getting stricter to avoid the very issues highlighted by Derrybrien from reoccurring.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020833#Comment_119020833

I wonder has he mentioned his legal 500 or less communities and his illegal 500 plus communities to anyone in Brussels ?

I hope not. Otherwise with the whole hassle over the Northern Ireland Protocol and the Irish Greens abstaining on the resolution condemning Russian aggression towards Ukraine, the E.U. will think we have all gone insane

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020948#Comment_119020948

Hasn`t stopped the same clustefcuk in Donegal.

Anyone with half a brain knows bogs move. I would have expected greens and environmentalists to have known that, yet I don`t remember a large campaign by either to stop building windfarms on them. Doing so was just disasters waiting to happen. After Derrybrien there was no excuse whatsoever for it to continue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021033#Comment_119021033

Just curious, does your concern for bogs extend to stopping the destruction by burning or is it just landslides caused by turbines?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021121#Comment_119021121

If you are curious go to one of those areas where large numbers cut turf to provide heat and ask them which would they depend on to keep them warm during Winter, a bank of turf or a wind turbine.

My advice would be to do it early when the turf are still soft rather than later when they are much harder.

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020843#Comment_119020843

Nobody claimed that most of the pm2.5 in Ireland comes from solid fuel burning.

Oh ffs. You're now splitting hairs and going around in circles.

Yes you did

"I specifically posted a graphic from the EPA stating that the relevant pollution is Mostly from burning solid fuels."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119013299#Comment_119013299

and then compounded the above with this from the same graphic

"particulate matter from the burning of solid fuel is estimated to cause premature 1300 deaths per year"*

But let me paraphrase what you've said above and clarify it

"Do you see what you're doing? You're pointing at three cherry picked places that do burn turf and where there are no bans on smokey coal and saying 'there's a PM2.5 problem' and its representative of the entire country

And then dismissing two other places where turf and other solid fuels may be less likley to be burnt because of smokey fuel bans etc, but where the emissions are coming from a range of sources including vehicles but also fossil fuel then saying it's not representative of the entire country

Fact: Neither is representative of the entire country despite both studies detecting P2.5 particulates

Fact: We know that P2.5 particulates come not just from solid fuels but from a variety of sources including fireplaces, car engines, etc

The main point however is that these point samples are not statistically significant and cannot be used to try and make claims that air quality for P2.5 particulates is either A) only from solid fuels / turf or B) that either scenario is representative of the entire country

And that point is further proven by the fact that we know that Ireland has no mean annual exceedences for air quality for the reference period 2015-2019 according to the EEA

Now give it a rest. Eamon has got a right royal bollocking for trying to scaremonger people about solid fuel emissions and turf and deaths. And rightly so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021196#Comment_119021196

I asked regarding your concern

Regarding the discussion a while back on oil prices

With the embargos on Russian oil kicking in, a large chunk of Russian oil will no longer make it to market, anywhere, and so is going to impact on prices globally. A side effect of this is the longer it last, the greater the long term damage to production in Russia as its not a small matter to stop/start oil production.

China & India are taking what they can, why wouldn't they, its cheap as chips for them, but there is only so much capacity in terms of shipping and refining so they will see be tapping into global supplies.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Russias-Oil-Output-Is-Plummeting-And-It-May-Never-Recover.html

For all the talk about the different PM levels, WHO vs EU, the EU are going to update their limits to align with the stricter WHO limits.

This comes as EU citizens start taking legal action against governments who are not taking sufficient action to clean up air pollution

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-citizens-may-sue-countries-health-damaging-dirty-air-top-court-adviser-says-2022-05-05/

Looks like the ban in September is coming at a perfect time and should mean Ireland will meet even stricter limits well into the future

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021331#Comment_119021331

My concern is that a bog landslide caused by windfarms is of benefit to nobody. If that bog is cut and the turf saved it provides warm in cold weather.

If you removed turf and all other fossil fuels what would have provided warmth last year when you see the SEAI report on renewable energy sources last year

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021422#Comment_119021422

Ok, so one type of destruction in the bogs is ok but the other isn't. The one that is ok is also polluting the air and contributing to significant health issues.

Your concern regarding, what, 2 landslides is honestly difficult to understand in that context.

I'm not excusing the landslides by any means, just saying it's difficult to square the circle of your concern for one type of destruction versus another.

Personally I would like to see all forms of destruction stopped, bog rewetting on a large scale and restoration/rehabilitation works where rewetting can't occur.

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020693#Comment_119020693

Well thanks for the copy and paste job.

Its not surprising to anyone who has even a passing interest, that all commercial oil and gas exploration proposals are subject to a raft of assessments and reviews. I even highlighted that this was a requirement previously in reply to your comment where you were ranting about "due diligence" and "catastrophic ecological damage"!

But where exactly is the information which shows that Mr Ryan has waved said regulations before the company looking to develop the Barryroe oil and gas field to its next phase, especially as you've already suggested that these additional requirements have been communicated to Providence?

Link please to that communication

Or is that whole suggestion yet another transparent hatchetjob

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021420#Comment_119021420

Looks like the ban in September is coming at a perfect time and should mean Ireland will meet even stricter limits well into the future

OK that's a new low even for this thread. Did you mean to suggest that the ban in September will be coming at "a perfect time" when many people will be facing into fuel poverty and a long cold winter?

I know some advocates would cheerlead just about anything coming from the Green Party. But tbh that takes the biscuit.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021450#Comment_119021450

To attempt to understand you would first have to get your head around the fact that we presently, and from the latest data, will not be able to provide heat alone for our households during cold weather for a long time to come without fossil fuels.

Because of that there is no point preaching at people as if they were personally responsible for 1,300 deaths for burning turf for warmth unless you can provide them with a guarantee that you can provide them with the same secure source as they already have for the same cost.

Of all the dumb times to attempt to ban turf based on an insane idea of communities of less than 500 being legal and a community of over 500 being illegal, during an energy crisis you would go a long way to find one dumber or more insane. It shows just how much the Irish Green party is out of touch and has left them being even less trusted by rural communities if that was even possible. If the Irish Green party thinks turf is troublesome,they have seen nothing yet if they are going to adopt the same attitude with farmers who you can bet your bottom dollar have been taking note.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021650#Comment_119021650

That's all good and well but it doesn't clarify why one method of bog destruction is acceptable to you but another causes great concern.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021420#Comment_119021420

For the E.U. to propose that change, what would you call countries that vote for it so they could be even more liable for mega-buck claims than present ?

Turkey voting for Christmas comes to mind.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021255#Comment_119021255

Look up the word 'relevant'

I put it there for a reason

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021450#Comment_119021450

The hypocrisy is mind blowing. If a wind turbine damages a bog its bad, but if a turf cutter destroys a bog, its perfectly fine

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021681#Comment_119021681

I have already told you, but attempt to read it in the context of what I said in my last post on the subject of turf. so here you go again.

Not only is it a disaster waiting to happen (and one as I said not seeing many so called environmentalists or greens being concerned about) building windfarms on bog, the resulting landslides, as well as polluting streams and rivers, are a terrible waste of good bog that could otherwise be cut and saved as turf.

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021691#Comment_119021691

You did indeed, when "relevant pollution" in context referred to those P2.5 particulates.

"Do you accept that it is a legitimate claim for Eamon Ryan to quote this figure as support for the need for Ireland to pollution from PM2.5 pollutants (Which i already showed relate mostly to solid fuel heating in urban Ireland and in residential setting"

No. But no matter where all that has been shown to not to stand up to scrutiny. I think we can safely leave it there

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021695#Comment_119021695

Except there is no hypocrisy except those ranting about "due diligence" and "catastrophic ecological damage" in relation to oil and gas exploration yet nowt a word about the destruction of sensitive environments by those involved in renewable energy generation.

It's a funny old world.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021724#Comment_119021724

The damage that can be caused by a deepwater horizon style failure absolutely dwarfs the impact of the landslides from poorly cited wind turbines

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021760#Comment_119021760

So companies who have destroyed vast areas of local and internationally important sensitive habitats through their investments in renewable energy generation are ok, but a company looking to develop a gas an oil field which has to date apparently followed all due diligence is not?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021695#Comment_119021695

The hypocrisy is believing a landslide caused by a windfarm damages a bog while a turf cutter destroys it.

A landslide destroys a bog, a turf cutter harvests a bog for a source of warmth.

You never got back to me on that SEAI report. Are you still contesting that the percentage of electricity from renewables did not drop drastically for 2021 ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021713#Comment_119021713

If I read you right, your concern for bogs is only in its use as a fuel source. Your concern is not for the habitat itself, the carbon locked in it, the emissions from drainage, the destruction from cutting, the pollution from burning and the health issues from the smoke, none of those matter.

Thanks for the clarification.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021719#Comment_119021719

It's not 'p2.5 particulates', it's PM2.5

Which is the scientific way of referring to particulates that are less than 2.5 microns in size

And your quote adds nothing to my previous clarification

The relevant pollution are those emissions that cause illness, and those are the high concentrations present because of solid fuel heating, Not the overall pm2.5 averaged out over the 26 counties of Ireland

Anyway. I've made my point on this. I fundamentally disagree with your attempt to claim that solid fuel heating is not a major cause of pm2.5 pollution. And that excessive pm2.5 pollution is prematurely killing over a thousand people a year is not something worth tackling

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021771#Comment_119021771

Sure you've previously reckoned in one of your comments, the bogs were just auld "dirt" anyway.

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021785#Comment_119021785

OK pedantism wins the day. Considering the term P2.5 has been used throughout the thread you are nitpicking only now?

But much like you previous claims that

Nobody claimed that most of the pm2.5 in Ireland comes from solid fuel burning.

Yes you did

"I specifically posted a graphic from the EPA stating that the relevant pollution is Mostly from burning solid fuels.

None of it stands up to any examination of what you've said vs what you've claimed to have said. And that also holds for what you're incorrectly claiming others have said.

"The relevant pollution are those emissions that cause illness, and those are the high concentrations present because of solid fuel heating, Not the overall pm2.5 averaged out over the 26 counties of Ireland"

Are they? according to the EEA all PM2.5 emissions have the potential to cause illness NOT just those from the burning of solid fuel. Believing otherwise could be construed as 'magical thinking'.

I also see you believe that the EU air quality guidelines and targets for the country as a whole are now irrelevant because you and other advocates like Mr Ryan say so?

I also see you're once again blaming fossil fuels for those "1,300 estimated premature deaths" even though we know that PM2.5 comes from a variety of sources including fossil fuels, vehicles etc, with the proportion coming from different sources varying due to time and location

And do remember the number of "premature deaths" is an EU estimated figure used for statistical modeling.

As I said you're splitting hairs and going around in circles. Your arguments have been busted.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021771#Comment_119021771

Not at all. Rather thank you for the clarification.

If I read you correctly you had no concerns for the habitat when it came to building wind farms on bogs with all the destruction from landslides and the subsequent drainage and pollution of streams and rivers.

If I also read you correctly then you would be more than happy if there were no humans on the planet as their presence is nothing other than a hindrance to the total and complete fulfillment of the green ideology.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021766#Comment_119021766

I think you've deliberately missed the point