"Green" policies are destroying this country

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119190636#Comment_119190636

Thing is we can not do without oil. So we shun cheap Russian oil and go for more expensive Saudi or Iranian and whoever got oil from there now get cheap Russian one.

It goes like this. Cheap energy = increased economic output and living standards. Expensive energy = constrained economy and falling living standards.

Full circle.

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119192711#Comment_119192711

We are getting bent over a barrel either way.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119192671#Comment_119192671

Wait the complaint is there isn't sufficient charging infrastructure to justify the ban on new petrol and diesel sales due to come into effect in...... 2035

Seriously?

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119193035#Comment_119193035

Yes, seriously. You conveniently forgot to register also price of an EV, battery replacement every 10 years and price of electricity which is increasing in front of our eyes as we speak.

I am curious though how do you propose we find enough lithium and nickel and please humor me - what would we do about lithium recycling which is pretty much non existent?

Only about 5% of lithium batteries are being recycled with rest going directly to landfill.

Once again, EU apparatchiks go for policies for which we do not have solution yet. Wishfully thinking that somehow, somewhere, some time in the future it will all be sorted...

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119191980#Comment_119191980

There is a transition plan, its too slow for my liking but it exists and rather than backpedalling and going back to more gas infrastructure we need to stick to the plan and ramp up renewables

An interesting development from Japan

https://www.sciencealert.com/japan-s-dropping-a-kaiju-sized-turbine-into-the-ocean-to-fish-for-limitless-energy

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119193788#Comment_119193788

Yes the current plan is to use natural gas in the period of transition to renewable energy generation. And as we know our current natural gas arrangements aren't secure. But don't worry about any gas infrastructure such as gas terminals that will be required. The government won't be paying for those. If that's what it takes, that's what it will take whether some choose to like that or otherwise

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119193788#Comment_119193788

They are planning a bigger one by 2030 apparently, by which time we could be all dead.

Down through the years there have been a whole slew of similar devices and other ones to harvest energy from the sea. Lots of neat engineering and marine work, funding, PhD scholars with shiny hardhats and brand new survival suits, optimistic news articles abound. Then it runs for 1-10 years and the company behind it is wound up with never another one made.

Openhydro: Gone - https://www.offshore-energy.biz/tides-wash-away-openhydro/

Islay Limpet: Gone

It seems that the crowds behind these can enjoy a career giving talks and doing lucrative consulting work after they scrap their generators.

Akrasia

https://interestingengineering.com/first-ever-gas-turbine-pure-hydrogen

"His team has now proven that they can use hydrogen in existing natural gas infrastructure without altering much of the initial composition of the structures. "

Once we can store hydrogen in a stable medium (Ammonia looks to be great best candidatefor this) and then crack it as we need it, we can solve the problem of medium to long term Energy reserves. And transportation of energy from areas of abundant renewables to areas in deficit)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195894#Comment_119195894

Asked and answered many, MANY times across several threads. You choose to ignore the answers though so not sure why you want to hear the same answers again but feel free to check out the many nuclear related threads where you have had your questions answered, repeatedly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196602#Comment_119196602

We are burning our own gas at the moment, the Corrib field gas. Maybe there'll be more gas fields taped around the coast (unlikely) but if they are we'll use those supplies too, however even the next biggest after Corrib has only 30% of the volume of Corrib so that won't last long and its very questionable if its even economically viable. Others are smaller still meaning it would possibly cost more to use it than its worth.

If they do come onstream, great, use 'em away for the periods that they last. Its well known Ireland will continue to use gas during the transition, nobody is denying that yet you are trying to infer its some kind of "gotcha" because we are doing so. Personally I'd prefer to see us have 30GW or offshore wind, 10GW of solar and GW's of storage all done before next year but I'm also pragmatic and realise we can do X amount each year.

On a side note, would love to see some data around you wind power expense claim, got any?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196836#Comment_119196836

As for wind prices, Take a look at electricity prices from all providers including airtricity and board gas who told us for years about 100% green electricity yet prices went up inline with everyone else

So gas prices go nuts which in turn causes our electricity prices to go nuts because so much is generated by gas and your interpretation is that wind is to blame? Am I understanding that right?

#logic

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195823#Comment_119195823

Do you know where ammonia come from?

China, Russia, India.

Banana Republic 1

good podcast worth a listen even for the anti crowd

https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/hot-mess/id1591631114?i=1000566189578

In a shock to nobody another fossil fuel company is found to have spent millions over the last few decades funding climate change denial misinformation ads and spokepeople.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/08/georgia-southern-company-climate-denial-ads

What may surprise some is the very same company are now shutting down a load of their coal plants and investing into solar.

Still unlikely to protect them from lawsuits from their investors though

therapist3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195823#Comment_119195823

Do you have any idea how incredibly poor the efficiency cycle is in that scenario, it is as bad as 9%

Do you realise how incredibly expensive that makes that energy, it'd be equivalent to a litre of diesel (10kwh) costing €5 pre tax circa 5 times today's price

It's worse ye are getting

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119197716#Comment_119197716

It comes from combining hydrogen with air (nitrogen)

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199198#Comment_119199198

With that being said one would have to wonder how marvelous it is to "combine hydrogen with air". It certainly even sound green until one want to dig deeper.

There is a reason why China, Russia and India produce over half of world supply. Actually few reasons, high energy demanding process using predominantly fossil fuels as input.

I bet you do know where that hydrogen come from.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199067#Comment_119199067

The round trip efficiency can be 'as bad as 9%' if you take the worst case scenario, or it can be more than 40% if you use the most efficient processes we currently have

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319921008119

Regardless, the point of generating Ammonia from renewable energy is that it takes surplus energy that has an extremely low marginal cost of production, and converts it to hydrogen. In this case, the electricity is essentially free because the wind turbine or solar panel would have had to be switched off to protect the grid and the capacity would have been wasted.

Also, storing it as ammonia is for backup reserves in the rare case when there is a widespread shortage of renewable capacity over a long period of time, so the use of this reserve would be infrequent and the higher cost of having this reserve would be more than offset by the savings in not having to rely on expensive gas turbines for grid servicing

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199581#Comment_119199581

No environmentalist advocates for using 'Bliue' or 'Grey' hydrogen for anything other than R&D purposes. It only makes sense if the hydrogen is generated from 100% renewable energy

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196287#Comment_119196287

Thats the thing. None of that has been "answered" in this thread. And tbh that looks fairly like a standard quote from brokens et al usual repertoire of deflect, deny and claims that a vague handwave somehow equates to an "answer".

Akrasia

Its all been answered.

over and over and over again

By one side at least, nobody advocating for Nuclear has ever answered any of the questions asked of them, such as 'Where is the plant going to be sited?'

How much will it cost to establish an entire nuclear regulatory infrastructure from scratch?

How long will it take to get through planning and to establish the regulatory infrastructure?

Where will we store the nuclear waste?

Where will we get the nuclear fuel?

How much will it cost to decommission the site afterwards?

What will we do to generate energy when the nuclear reactor is down for for refuelling and inspections?

Where will we get the clean water? A nuclear powerplant uses billions of litres of water a day given that water scarcity is something that we need to plan for with climate change increasing the risk of droughts even in Ireland

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196883#Comment_119196883

More electricity generated by renewables is not going to lower the price of electricity. Not even if they were generating 90%. You know this well enough by now. The real gougers whose profits are benefiting from the green backed policy of marginal pricing are the renewable energy companies who are being paid at the same rate as gas.

Despite all the taxpayers money being poured into renewables the consumer has received zero return in reducing electricity charges. Shut down all the renewable electricity generation in the morning and it would not make the slightest difference to the price.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119193788#Comment_119193788

http://nytimes.com/2020/02/03/climate/japan-coal-fukushima.html

An interesting development in Japan you may have missed. That and their refusal to sign the COP26 agreement because it "needed to preserve all its options for power generation"

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200711#Comment_119200711

I agree with you except for your last sentence. Shutting down renewable generation would further increase the demand for gas and increase prices.

That being said we're being taken for mugs. If the power we use is generated via cheaper methods such as renewables it should be reflected in our bills.

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200448#Comment_119200448

Hate to tell you Akrasia they're questions, not "answers". And funny thing is you've just asked them. Are posters now supposed to be mind readers and reply in advance or something?

This is a discussion not a q&a session. No one is here to be lectured that one extreme green POV is the "answer" and or therefore the issue shouldn't be discussed.

Tbh Its risible ay this point in the thread, that we've seriously got some posters claiming everything has been answered and that's it 🙄

We could just as easily ask similar logistical questions about offshore wind generation or hydrogen or any of the other alternatives. The fact that not every facet of a topic has been detailed to a posters personal satisfaction is neither here nor there.

Btw the threads not simply about "nuclear" in case you've not noticed as in the comment to which I replied

"So why not use domestic gas reserves both offshore and onshore via fracking tech instead of continuing to pay for foreign gas for another few decades as is the best case scenario under the most of optimistic "green" plans?

why not start looking into nuclear as part of mix, plenty of time till 2050"

But yes there's been extensive discussions and reasons given why our own natural gas and the development of nuclear are viable options amongst other alternatives. You may disagree but hey that's your own.

Personally I'd like to see the new small scale reactor technology being properly considered by the government and not just wiped under the mat by Eamon Ryan and friends.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200835#Comment_119200835

If we shut down renewable energy sources in the morning in favour of natural gas, the resulting increase in gas required would be a drop in the ocean and would have no effect on gas prices globally. I`m not saying I`m in favour of doing that, but if we did, it`s an illustration of just how we are getting zero benefit from renewables when it comes to electricity charges. Under the E.U. green sponsored marginal pricing policy we are now paying for electricity based on the price of natural gas. Even if renewables were generating 90%+ of our electricity the same applies.

The consumer is being gouged by renewable energy companies who are making massive profits from this marginal pricing policy.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119201112#Comment_119201112

Yes, I know they're questions. That's why I called them questions

I put them here because while one side of this 'discussion' gives reasons for our position, the other side consistently ignore the reasons that are given for why Nuclear is not a good fit for Ireland.

If you want to propose a nuclear power plant in Ireland, these are just some of the questions that you need to answer to support your position.

Proposing Fracking in Ireland is even further from reality given that it is banned and has zero political support.

These SMR nuclear facilities do not exist anywhere in the world apart from one prototype in Russia and are only being developed now at an unknown cost and with unknown safety or environmental impacts

Offshore wind, on the other hand, is a proven technology for which Ireland has an abundant natural resource.

Well the "EU recognizing gas a green fuel" proposal looks like it might be dead on arrival. Its been rejected at a joint committee meeting today which doesn't bode well for the final vote in July by the EU Parliament

https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1536693995270811650?s=20&t=emyGSkfcpvY7Nic6vKPBrw

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119201379#Comment_119201379

If you wish to see fact, figures and research being ignored, this thread would a very good example and by the 'side' you're holding up btw. I'd suggest taking off the selective reading glasses to start .

Yes you claimed all the answers had been already provided! And then moved to a tactic of flinging out questions that you think should be answered. A tad Ironic.

There has already been an indepth and extensive discussion of nuclear power as an alternative means of energy generation in the thread. If you've missed most of that there's not much I can suggest you do, other than what one poster was apt to say repeatedly- read the thread. Or if you wish to add to that discussion and by all means to so. But don't throw in a tantrum just because you believe some aspects have not been fully discussed and then demand they all be answered at once!

Fracking within the country may not currently allowed, however a bigger issue there is not fracking but the attempted banning of all LNG by some clueless green policy regardless of where it comes from, fracked or otherwise. That and some greens deliberately blocking access to our own resources of natural gas.

If you honestly believe the only SMRs being developed are in Russia you are sadly mistaken. Recent developments in the US and a planned development of a joint US / Romania SMR are at the leading edge if this technology, is currently progress and going ahead with costs projected to come in at 1/10 of traditional nuclear builds. This SMR technology is about to revolutionise nuclear energy generation. And yet we have the same diehard head in the sand notions that all nuclear is bad / is too expensive/ is to difficult / belongs to the Russians ie lots of excuses and little evident research on any of those issues.

Offshore wind like all energy generation methods comes with its own issues of reliability, issues with extreme winds, wave and storm damage and excessive costs over onshore wind generation. It is yet to be proven that it will make a return over and above the investment needed to overcome these issues in an exposed maritime location such as Ireland.

Regardless of whether Offshore wind generation is the success it is hoped it will be, It remains we need to divesify our means of energy generation. Currently that means wind and as a backup natural gas. For the future it may well mean wind, solar, nuclear, hydrogen, large-scale storage and offshore wind generation. Time will tell what the final mix will be

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119201713#Comment_119201713

I'd suggest you read the last two paragraphs before you start prematurely celebrating the shooting of ourselves in both feet.

Regardless of what Mr Cuffe thinks or doesn't think - we're going to be using natural gas well into the future. Giving it a green designation as a lower carbon fuel would help keep the costs of energy generation down and might just put a curb on some of the obscene profits being made by 'green' energy companies off the back of gas prices under the EU marginal price policy.